In a conversation with AfD leader Alice Weidel on X, Musk concurred with her assertion that Adolf Hitler was a communist and pushed disinformation about migrants coming into the US.
What happens between now and that level of automation?
We already do have robots that clean sewers, cleaning sewers isn’t actually the point but doing things “people don’t want to” and, duh, what’ll happen is inventing all automation that might be necessary, as part of prefiguration.
In the meantime I would much rather have a socdem government than a tankie boot in my face. Ask anyone from a post-soviet country as to why.
You’re making assumptions about me
No. I’m drawing conclusions from your choice of argument. What, in your mind, and be honest now, is the social standing of people doing such jobs? Are they respected? Do you respect them? Investigate the value attached to those things, and where those judgements really come from. Did you form them yourself, after careful analysis? Do you have them because it is socially expected that you have them? Is it fantasy to value the sewer worker next door more than Elon Musk? Do you think a society, at large, might be capable of doing that?
You want this now,
When the fuck am I supposed to have said that? Did you, *drumroll*, assume?
…ok you got me. I want this now. I also want bedtime to be abolished. But I’m also an adult, old enough to understand that actionism does not lead anywhere as the socio-psychological component of the system is furnished to prompt exactly that unreflected actionism that reinforces it. Your rebellion has been factored into the equation and is being used against your dreams. It is not sufficient to swim against the stream, you have to get out of the river. It’s nice here, btw, I have dry socks.
You’re running into even more contradictions as we move right along. You’d rather have Capitalism, warts and all, than Socialism. Further still, assuming you’re in the Global North, you’d rather perpetuate Imperialism and vast exploitation of the Global South, which is a necessity for Social Democracy in the Global North and perpetuation of Capitalism. Really, this reveals your true intentions, by approving of Social Democracy for as long as “prefiguration” lasts, you approve of the Imperialism it requires to sustain itself. You oppose Socialism more than you oppose Capitalism and Imperialism.
Moreover, this “prefiguration” phase would be be better accomplished in a Socialist state, would it not? Socialism for Marxists is already a transitional phase to Communism, and Marxists want collectivization. Seems you just want to live off of the exploitation of the Global South until they are milked dry, then live in a utopian commune free from struggle, or bad things like pooping.
As for your nonsense notion that I don’t “respect” sanitation workers, it’s the opposite. I respect them greatly, but I understand that their jobs are extremely dirty and toxic, risk their health and safety, and most do so because they need to make a living. Someone will have to end up doing such work, it is not fully automated, so it is better to have systems like job rotation or lower working hours for the same pay as a form of “hazard adjustment” as is in place in several AES states.
Your last paragraph is just pseudo-intellectual idealist masturbation. It was funny to laugh at, but that’s about it.
You’d rather have Capitalism, warts and all, than Socialism.
No. I would rather have liberal democracy than regress to feudalism with a different coat of paint. Actionism is a trap, the system is begging you to oppose it in certain ways because doing so will only reinforce it. If you want to sit on the long end of the leaver, you might need to walk some distance.
their jobs are extremely dirty and toxic, risk their health and safety, and most do so because they need to make a living
Then get them safety equipment and robots.
You want things to be de-commodified, don’t you? “A stateless, classless, moneyless society”. You say currently sewerage workers are compelled by money, I take that to mean that you think they only do it because they need money because otherwise they’d starve.
But they would be supplied for in communism whether they do that job or not. So why would they still choose to do the work? For the greater good, of course. This isn’t something that’s unique to Anarchism. You’re trying to saw off a branch that you yourself are sitting on.
Moreover, this “prefiguration” phase would be be better accomplished in a Socialist state, would it not?
In a soviet-style state: Definitely not. You need freedom of association to be able to get people used to the necessary modes of organisation. The USSR did not tolerate such things, China does not tolerate such things. The reason is simple: They do understand that it is in direct contradiction to the centralisation of power, and thereby the privileges of the party. To do prefiguration, you have to eat humble pie.
Please explain how a democratic, publicly owned economy is “feudalism.”
Furthermore, please, try to actually understand Marxism and not just make up whatever you want about it. Labor vouchers and credits aren’t money, money is made to be exchanged amond individuals. Labour vouchers being used to buy goods and services from the social fund isn’t money, because they are destroyed upon use. No “greater good” sacrifices necessary for you to live on the backs of those with the short end of the stick!
As for prefiguration, it doesn’t seem to be possible in a Capitalist state so far either, so again you just approve of Imperialism and Capitalism so long as it’s your state that sits on top of the Global South.
Truly, you have no clue what Marxists actually advocate and you don’t understand Marxist states either, why are you bothering to reply? What’s your goal here?
Please explain how a democratic, publicly owned economy is “feudalism.”
Democratic is not what the USSR was, and that style of thing is the only thing Marxists ever achieved. There’s also a difference between public ownership and state control, doubly so in non-democracies. Also you’re leaving out a model not really seen anywhere outside of liberal democracies and that’s foundations, that is, self-owning companies. Zeiss is a good example. Their purpose, according to statute, pretty much say “We do optics and funnel some money to the University of Jena”, no shareholder interest at all.
As for prefiguration, it doesn’t seem to be possible in a Capitalist state so far either, so again you just approve of Imperialism and Capitalism so long as it’s your state that sits on top of the Global South.
Dude Latinos are the most vocal and active in the prefigurative space. There’s a reason we use a Portuguese term, “especifismo”, for a basic organisational principle. It’s the failure to think outside of the vanguardist box that makes Marxists not achieve anything but regression: Don’t dilute yourself to be better and more enlightened. You are not, you’re also a mere human. Anarchists understand we need to eat humble pie when talking to people, that we do not have all the answers, that all we have is a good compass and a toolbox that can help people to walk into that direction, on their own terms, at their own pace, organically, without coercion, which is crucial because the end goal does not contain any coercion.
Labour vouchers being used to buy goods and services from the social fund isn’t money, because they are destroyed upon use.
How do you eat if you don’t have a labour voucher? How is that “to everyone according to need”? It’s the same “bow to the bosses or starve” tyranny as capitalism without welfare state.
Your bits on the USSR translate to “I said it wasn’t democratic” as well as “state and public control is totally different and in the USSR it wasn’t public” so they can be safely ignored, given the books I already linked proving otherwise.
As for Imperialism, I mean you specifically who said you wanted to live in a Social Democracy in the Global North rather than Socialism. I don’t think you share many views with most Anarchists, based on how you seem to understand Anarchism and prefiguration.
As for labour vouchers, those aren’t the only way to get things, and they’d likely become unnecessary once production advances enough. You can have social services and whatnot, but during the development of Communism (and Anarchism, whether you agree or not) labour vouchers are a necessary form of accounting. “From each according to their ability, to each according to their work” can only truly become “from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs” at a higher phase of Communism with more advanced Means of Production. Things like healthcare and education are usually free or inexpensive in AES countries, same with food.
It is not “the same as Capitalism,” because production is not done for accumulation of profit in an M-C-M’ circuit, and because production is publicly owned and planned. Very, very different from private ownership and competition for accumulation and profit.
Your bits on the USSR translate to “I said it wasn’t democratic” as well as “state and public control is totally different and in the USSR it wasn’t public” so they can be safely ignored, given the books I already linked proving otherwise.
Noone but tankies considers the USSR to have been democratic. You can use a different, non-standard, sectarian, definition of a common concept all you want but don’t be confused if people don’t agree with your equivocation tactics.
As for Imperialism, I mean you specifically who said you wanted to live in a Social Democracy in the Global North rather than Socialism.
No. I said I do not want to live under what you call socialism, which is, in the best case, red-painted oligarchy. I’d love there to be actual socialism but in the meantime, until material conditions are created which actually allow a revolution, and that includes resilience against a Bolshevik counter-revolution, a liberal democracy with a social market economy is adequate. It is an improvement over your red-painted oligarchy, ask any East European.
As to your implied accusation of colonial exploitation: First off, there’s no cannon boats of ours sailing up your rivers, we gave that up long ago: If you don’t want to sell us stuff, then don’t sell us stuff. Secondly, this. The USSR never cared about the conditions the people producing their imports are in, somehow a social market economy does manage to.
Guess Wikipedia is “tankie” now. For a better source, Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan (also referenced as a source on the Wikipedia page). I also recommend Is the Red Flag Flying? Political Economy of the Soviet Union. Again, nobody is going to care what you say if you keep doubling down, when you have been given sources and you provide none other than “only bad people agree with you” you’ve already admitted to not having done the research necessary to make such a claim.
As for your defense of Imperialism, I’m quite happy to be proven right, you’re a neoliberal at heart with an Anarchist coat of paint. No Anarchist I have ever spoken to, regardless of their opinion of the USSR, has said Imperialism is fine once it has been pointed out. The US maintains 750 foreign military bases just for the US military, it’s much higher if you include Western Europe, and they make up the same economic bloc. These countries exert power to force slave-like labor in countries they intentionally under-develop by expropriating vast amounts of resources. Imperialism in the 21st Century as well as Super Imperialism are great books to check out to remove the neoliberalism from your brain and take a proper anti-Imperialist stance.
To quote Michael Parenti:
The Third World is not poor. You don’t go to poor countries to make money. There are very few poor countries in this world. Most countries are rich! The Philippines are rich! Brazil is rich! Mexico is rich! Chile is rich! Only the people are poor. But there’s billions to be made there, to be carved out, and to be taken. There’s been billions for 400 years! The capitalist European and North American powers have carved out and taken the timber, the flax, the hemp, the cocoa, the rum, the tin, the copper, the iron, the rubber, the bauxite, the slaves, and the cheap labour. They have taken out of these countries. These countries are not underdeveloped, they’re overexploited!
You did not read the article. It makes a clear distinction between council democracy itself (soviet means council), and what was implemented in the USSR. There did exist some democracy on lower levels that were not of immediate interest to the higher-ups, but that was also the case under monarchism.
Your next paragraph is worse, when you rely on “any East European.” Nostalgia for the Soviet Union is well-documeneted. 66% of Russians polled in 2015 want Socialism back,
Russians have neither a liberal democracy nor a social market economy. They’re also not terribly educated about the outside world. Ask Poles, ask Ukrainians, ask Romanians.
and this number is actually a good deal higher in many post-soviet sattelite states.
That asks specifically about the economic situation. Probably due to current factors such as affordability of rent, you won’t see me arguing that there’s work to do in those areas. Oh wait Hungary tops the list yep that’s not surprising they just got EU funds cut due to democratic backsliding and they were very much a net recipient. Fidez is a bunch of corrupt fascists. We’ll have to switch stereotypes around, Romanians are supposed to be the thieves I guess it’s ok they can still be the drunks.
As for your defense of Imperialism, I’m quite happy to be proven right, you’re a neoliberal at heart with an Anarchist coat of paint. No Anarchist I have ever spoken to, regardless of their opinion of the USSR, has said Imperialism is fine once it has been pointed out.
Which imperialism did I defend? I said that we stopped sailing cannon boats up rivers. I’m fucking European don’t dare blaming shit Seppos do on us.
Unless you mean the “pressure companies abroad into not using slave labour” thing in which case yes I’m completely fine with us throwing our big economic dick around. Do you have any issues with us using our economical power to combat slave labour and other forms of exploitation, even against the will of governments in the global south?
And, no, we’re not the “same economic bloc” as the US. This is our bloc. Mercosur is likely to come into force soon, US is way unlikely to ever happen. Things that may puzzle you: It actually includes Vietnam.
The Third World is not poor. You don’t go to poor countries to make money. There are very few poor countries in this world. Most countries are rich! The Philippines are rich! Brazil is rich! Mexico is rich! Chile is rich! Only the people are poor.
…then elect better governments? It’s your countries, your responsibility. Do something with those riches, like for starters distributing them fairly, and growing them. Are we supposed to swoop in and direct you in how to do it? We’d very likely do a better job this time around but generally lost the taste for imperialism so the answer is no.
We already do have robots that clean sewers, cleaning sewers isn’t actually the point but doing things “people don’t want to” and, duh, what’ll happen is inventing all automation that might be necessary, as part of prefiguration.
In the meantime I would much rather have a socdem government than a tankie boot in my face. Ask anyone from a post-soviet country as to why.
No. I’m drawing conclusions from your choice of argument. What, in your mind, and be honest now, is the social standing of people doing such jobs? Are they respected? Do you respect them? Investigate the value attached to those things, and where those judgements really come from. Did you form them yourself, after careful analysis? Do you have them because it is socially expected that you have them? Is it fantasy to value the sewer worker next door more than Elon Musk? Do you think a society, at large, might be capable of doing that?
When the fuck am I supposed to have said that? Did you, *drumroll*, assume?
…ok you got me. I want this now. I also want bedtime to be abolished. But I’m also an adult, old enough to understand that actionism does not lead anywhere as the socio-psychological component of the system is furnished to prompt exactly that unreflected actionism that reinforces it. Your rebellion has been factored into the equation and is being used against your dreams. It is not sufficient to swim against the stream, you have to get out of the river. It’s nice here, btw, I have dry socks.
You’re running into even more contradictions as we move right along. You’d rather have Capitalism, warts and all, than Socialism. Further still, assuming you’re in the Global North, you’d rather perpetuate Imperialism and vast exploitation of the Global South, which is a necessity for Social Democracy in the Global North and perpetuation of Capitalism. Really, this reveals your true intentions, by approving of Social Democracy for as long as “prefiguration” lasts, you approve of the Imperialism it requires to sustain itself. You oppose Socialism more than you oppose Capitalism and Imperialism.
Moreover, this “prefiguration” phase would be be better accomplished in a Socialist state, would it not? Socialism for Marxists is already a transitional phase to Communism, and Marxists want collectivization. Seems you just want to live off of the exploitation of the Global South until they are milked dry, then live in a utopian commune free from struggle, or bad things like pooping.
As for your nonsense notion that I don’t “respect” sanitation workers, it’s the opposite. I respect them greatly, but I understand that their jobs are extremely dirty and toxic, risk their health and safety, and most do so because they need to make a living. Someone will have to end up doing such work, it is not fully automated, so it is better to have systems like job rotation or lower working hours for the same pay as a form of “hazard adjustment” as is in place in several AES states.
Your last paragraph is just pseudo-intellectual idealist masturbation. It was funny to laugh at, but that’s about it.
No. I would rather have liberal democracy than regress to feudalism with a different coat of paint. Actionism is a trap, the system is begging you to oppose it in certain ways because doing so will only reinforce it. If you want to sit on the long end of the leaver, you might need to walk some distance.
Then get them safety equipment and robots.
You want things to be de-commodified, don’t you? “A stateless, classless, moneyless society”. You say currently sewerage workers are compelled by money, I take that to mean that you think they only do it because they need money because otherwise they’d starve.
But they would be supplied for in communism whether they do that job or not. So why would they still choose to do the work? For the greater good, of course. This isn’t something that’s unique to Anarchism. You’re trying to saw off a branch that you yourself are sitting on.
In a soviet-style state: Definitely not. You need freedom of association to be able to get people used to the necessary modes of organisation. The USSR did not tolerate such things, China does not tolerate such things. The reason is simple: They do understand that it is in direct contradiction to the centralisation of power, and thereby the privileges of the party. To do prefiguration, you have to eat humble pie.
Please explain how a democratic, publicly owned economy is “feudalism.”
Furthermore, please, try to actually understand Marxism and not just make up whatever you want about it. Labor vouchers and credits aren’t money, money is made to be exchanged amond individuals. Labour vouchers being used to buy goods and services from the social fund isn’t money, because they are destroyed upon use. No “greater good” sacrifices necessary for you to live on the backs of those with the short end of the stick!
As for prefiguration, it doesn’t seem to be possible in a Capitalist state so far either, so again you just approve of Imperialism and Capitalism so long as it’s your state that sits on top of the Global South.
Truly, you have no clue what Marxists actually advocate and you don’t understand Marxist states either, why are you bothering to reply? What’s your goal here?
Democratic is not what the USSR was, and that style of thing is the only thing Marxists ever achieved. There’s also a difference between public ownership and state control, doubly so in non-democracies. Also you’re leaving out a model not really seen anywhere outside of liberal democracies and that’s foundations, that is, self-owning companies. Zeiss is a good example. Their purpose, according to statute, pretty much say “We do optics and funnel some money to the University of Jena”, no shareholder interest at all.
Dude Latinos are the most vocal and active in the prefigurative space. There’s a reason we use a Portuguese term, “especifismo”, for a basic organisational principle. It’s the failure to think outside of the vanguardist box that makes Marxists not achieve anything but regression: Don’t dilute yourself to be better and more enlightened. You are not, you’re also a mere human. Anarchists understand we need to eat humble pie when talking to people, that we do not have all the answers, that all we have is a good compass and a toolbox that can help people to walk into that direction, on their own terms, at their own pace, organically, without coercion, which is crucial because the end goal does not contain any coercion.
How do you eat if you don’t have a labour voucher? How is that “to everyone according to need”? It’s the same “bow to the bosses or starve” tyranny as capitalism without welfare state.
Your bits on the USSR translate to “I said it wasn’t democratic” as well as “state and public control is totally different and in the USSR it wasn’t public” so they can be safely ignored, given the books I already linked proving otherwise.
As for Imperialism, I mean you specifically who said you wanted to live in a Social Democracy in the Global North rather than Socialism. I don’t think you share many views with most Anarchists, based on how you seem to understand Anarchism and prefiguration.
As for labour vouchers, those aren’t the only way to get things, and they’d likely become unnecessary once production advances enough. You can have social services and whatnot, but during the development of Communism (and Anarchism, whether you agree or not) labour vouchers are a necessary form of accounting. “From each according to their ability, to each according to their work” can only truly become “from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs” at a higher phase of Communism with more advanced Means of Production. Things like healthcare and education are usually free or inexpensive in AES countries, same with food.
It is not “the same as Capitalism,” because production is not done for accumulation of profit in an M-C-M’ circuit, and because production is publicly owned and planned. Very, very different from private ownership and competition for accumulation and profit.
Noone but tankies considers the USSR to have been democratic. You can use a different, non-standard, sectarian, definition of a common concept all you want but don’t be confused if people don’t agree with your equivocation tactics.
No. I said I do not want to live under what you call socialism, which is, in the best case, red-painted oligarchy. I’d love there to be actual socialism but in the meantime, until material conditions are created which actually allow a revolution, and that includes resilience against a Bolshevik counter-revolution, a liberal democracy with a social market economy is adequate. It is an improvement over your red-painted oligarchy, ask any East European.
As to your implied accusation of colonial exploitation: First off, there’s no cannon boats of ours sailing up your rivers, we gave that up long ago: If you don’t want to sell us stuff, then don’t sell us stuff. Secondly, this. The USSR never cared about the conditions the people producing their imports are in, somehow a social market economy does manage to.
Guess Wikipedia is “tankie” now. For a better source, Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan (also referenced as a source on the Wikipedia page). I also recommend Is the Red Flag Flying? Political Economy of the Soviet Union. Again, nobody is going to care what you say if you keep doubling down, when you have been given sources and you provide none other than “only bad people agree with you” you’ve already admitted to not having done the research necessary to make such a claim.
Your next paragraph is worse, when you rely on “any East European.” Nostalgia for the Soviet Union is well-documeneted. 66% of Russians polled in 2015 want Socialism back, and this number is actually a good deal higher in many post-soviet sattelite states. When you do no research and assume yourself to be right, you show others exactly how unreliable your other points are. Why make a point easily googled to disprove?
As for your defense of Imperialism, I’m quite happy to be proven right, you’re a neoliberal at heart with an Anarchist coat of paint. No Anarchist I have ever spoken to, regardless of their opinion of the USSR, has said Imperialism is fine once it has been pointed out. The US maintains 750 foreign military bases just for the US military, it’s much higher if you include Western Europe, and they make up the same economic bloc. These countries exert power to force slave-like labor in countries they intentionally under-develop by expropriating vast amounts of resources. Imperialism in the 21st Century as well as Super Imperialism are great books to check out to remove the neoliberalism from your brain and take a proper anti-Imperialist stance.
To quote Michael Parenti:
Why do you keep replying? What is your goal?
You did not read the article. It makes a clear distinction between council democracy itself (soviet means council), and what was implemented in the USSR. There did exist some democracy on lower levels that were not of immediate interest to the higher-ups, but that was also the case under monarchism.
Russians have neither a liberal democracy nor a social market economy. They’re also not terribly educated about the outside world. Ask Poles, ask Ukrainians, ask Romanians.
That asks specifically about the economic situation. Probably due to current factors such as affordability of rent, you won’t see me arguing that there’s work to do in those areas. Oh wait Hungary tops the list yep that’s not surprising they just got EU funds cut due to democratic backsliding and they were very much a net recipient. Fidez is a bunch of corrupt fascists. We’ll have to switch stereotypes around, Romanians are supposed to be the thieves I guess it’s ok they can still be the drunks.
Which imperialism did I defend? I said that we stopped sailing cannon boats up rivers. I’m fucking European don’t dare blaming shit Seppos do on us.
Unless you mean the “pressure companies abroad into not using slave labour” thing in which case yes I’m completely fine with us throwing our big economic dick around. Do you have any issues with us using our economical power to combat slave labour and other forms of exploitation, even against the will of governments in the global south?
And, no, we’re not the “same economic bloc” as the US. This is our bloc. Mercosur is likely to come into force soon, US is way unlikely to ever happen. Things that may puzzle you: It actually includes Vietnam.
…then elect better governments? It’s your countries, your responsibility. Do something with those riches, like for starters distributing them fairly, and growing them. Are we supposed to swoop in and direct you in how to do it? We’d very likely do a better job this time around but generally lost the taste for imperialism so the answer is no.
To save your soul.