V17

They can use special ops.

If they could, they would have already done so.

They can appeal to the Palestinian people.

They’re doing that as well, but thinking that this would solve the situation is LOL, LMAO even.

They can revise their foreign policy to not set these situations up in the first place (see the previous 20 years of Israeli policy towards Palestine).

I see we’re getting back to “well they should have done xxxx”. Israel stopped the occupation of Gaza and let them have free elections to govern themselves. As a result Hamas with a stated goal of destroying Israel won and started doing terrorists attacks on towns around Gaza. So Israel built a wall. So maybe Palestinians can revisit their foreign policy towards Israel (see the previous 20 years of Palestinian policy towards Israel).

They arent’ targeting Hamas, they are targeting any Palestinian with a pulse.

Again, if they did that, they would have been levelling Gaza to the ground without risk to their soldiers, they have the resources to do so. They announced in advance that they will do an assault on northern Gaza to give civilians the chance to leave and go south for now, and even if they initially gave them ridiculously short 24 hours, the actual time given was days longer than that. Only, a large part of the civilians were prevented from doing so… Not by the IDF, but by Hamas, wanting to use them as human shields as usual.

Right now, you are acting as an apologist for a genocide and you should seriously reconsider your position. It will not age well.

Right now, you are acting as an apologist for a monstrous terrorist attack and you should seriously reconsider your position. It will not age well.

If Israel actually commits genocide, I will change my position. So far that does not seem to be the case.

Israel is a powerful nation with all the options they can imagine on the table. If they can’t imagine another option then that’s on them.

You say that, but I don’t see any other way to remove the Hamas threat than what they’re doing. Is your argument just “Israel is all-powerful and they should find a different way even if we don’t see any!”?

are you making the argument that the correct response to a terrorist attack is to genocide the people where the terrorists are based?

What? I’m mentioning Grozny. Have you heard about Grozny? If you haven’t, maybe I understand how you could interpret my message in that way, though I still don’t think it makes sense. In the second Chechen war, this is what Grozny looked like after Russia was finished with it, most likely on false pretenses (putin faking appartment bombings around Russia and blaming it on Chechens). They simply turned it to rubble.

Israel could do this and get away with it just like Russia did, and their reasons for attacking Hamas are more serious than reasons Russians had to attack Chechnya. Instead of doing that they chose to do a ground invasion, which will reduce the loss of civilian lives and infrastructure, despite the fact that it will dramatically increase the casualties on Israeli side.

That is not genocide, that is deciding to avoid genocide in a situation where they could likely get away with it.

I’m not sure what else they’re supposed to do. After a terrorist attack like this one, I don’t really see any other option that would realistically be accepted by the government and the population other than attempting to wipe out Hamas completely. Israel is risking many lives of Israeli soldiers in order to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties by deciding to do a terribly difficult ground invasion instead of levelling Gaza to rubble, Grozny style. I don’t blame them for trying to make the situation at least a bit easier by blocking communication of all things.

We’re again talking about what should have been done, and my point is that it’s a pointless exercise, but if you really can’t see any ways to build a functioning economy with literally billions of free money, then let’s continue the exercise: about half of Palestinians used to have permits to work in Israel before Hamas fucked them over by attacking Israel. In the recent years the number of Israeli work permits has been increasing again, unfortunately Hamas decided to fuck them over again. So even if they had a small economy of their own, there was a way to work and bring money to then spend in Gaza.

But I find it really hard to believe you couldn’t imagine a dozen things more useful for Gazans than things to wage war against Israel that ultimately only ever made their situation worse.

Another episode of “what should have been done” is that while with humanitarian aid it’s not really possible, we never should have sent Gaza any development money without any conditions based on outcomes of their usage. But as with the above, what’s done is done.

And Hamas could have built Gazans an OK place to live in if they used the literally billions of dollars of foreign money for investments instead of for weapons and tunnels. Didn’t happen either.

the best example is Blender which works almost twice as fast on Linux

People say this, but what exactly do you mean? I mostly model on windows because it’s my primary system (I use applications that simply don’t work well enough with wine), but mostly finish and render stuff on linux because of windows’ retarded automatic updates etc. that can just cancel rendering without asking. And the only difference I’ve seen is how fast Blender starts - I’d say that’s more than 2x as fast on linux, it’s a huge difference. But rendering is the same (NVidia GTX GPU) and other work inside blender also seems to be about the same.

First news from Israeli forensics institute are out, seems like it was not a lie at all: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769339

Kugel also explained that the age range of the victims spans from 3 months to 80 or 90 years old. Many bodies, including those of babies, are without heads.

Asked if they were decapitated, Kugel answered yes. Although he admits that, given the circumstances, it’s difficult to ascertain whether they were decapitated before or after death, as well as how they were beheaded, “whether cut off by knife or blown off by RPG,” he explained.

https://twitter.com/IsraeliPM/status/1712471782303867144

Spreading “lies” requires intent. Like what Hamas did with the hospital parking lot. With the babies all context points to a professional screw up at best. And there was no screw up or lying required to create justification for Israel’s behavior, slaughtering hundreds of civilians including babies and likely torturing them was enough.

As far as I know, they released some of those photos publicly. I rely on word of others because I have no interest in seeing it, you can google it yourself.

As criminal as that is, I’m pretty sure burned babies and slaughtered and likely tortured civilians were enough for that.

By how much is it worse than burned babies, which were released?

Plus, notice that I said it’s plausible, not that I believe one version or the other. And, again, even if we say that it was a lie and therefora a fuck up and journos did not sufficiently crosscheck the validity and several people who claim to have seen the photos are lying even if it could cost their careers, in the light of the colossal fuckup with the hospital parking lot bombing that endangered diplomatic ties with several countries and started protests in the streets of several countries, this was relatively minor and pretty well handled.

So, why don’t they show these pictures to the world?

Decency? I don’t know that of course, I’m not saying that I’m sure about this, but not releasing photos of people that are too undignified or drastic is a relatively common policy.

Do you by any chance happen to have believed the US lies about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, which the US lied about to invade Iraq, and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians?

I’m not from the US and I was not yet following US/international politics at that time. Also none of the people I talked about were americans (“our” ambassador being czech, a journalist-editor from France also confirmed seeing the photos), so I don’t see it as particularly relevant anyway.

People are still spreading the beheaded baby horseshit

Honestly, the only context in which I see it is people complaining about it being a lie, but that may just be that we have different internet bubbles.

Personally I don’t call it horseshit because several people that I consider trustworthy confirmed being shown photos of beheaded babies (though not 40 of them, but I’ve never even seen that claim anywhere, I’ve seen a separate early claim that 40 babies were killed in total, not specifically beheaded) by Israeli officials, one of them being our ambassador, who so far has been a completely trustworthy person as far as I know. We also do know that Israelis only showed some photos privately to selected foreign politicians, journalists and diplomats, because (apart from them saying so) the people shown described those photos and they were later released publicly. It is not inconceivable that the beheaded babies were among those not released to public for some reason.

It’s a basic propaganda technique. You, to great fanfare, release some big fuckoff lie that makes the “other” look bad (“V17 FUCKS GOATS! V17 IS A GOATFUCKER, EVERYONE!”) and then days or weeks later you follow up with the truth to head off any claims that you couldn’t possibly be a REAL journalist (“Our apologies, it seems V17 was only washing his car. There was no goat. He did not fuck the car.”) but you do so in as quiet and half-assed of a manner as possible.

The issue is that is not what happened. Apart from what I say above, the fact that white house representatives pretty much immediately walked back on that was widely reported by mainstream media a day later. Also, the attack was already so brutal that it changed nothing about how Hamas is being perceived. For most people, slaughtered civilians with marks of torture and burned babies (those were afaik released on photos, but I did not want to look to check) were unsurprisingly enough.

Compare that to a failed rocket of palestinian islamic jihad falling on a hospital parking lot, Hamas knowingly lying about it according to a released wiretap and people still arguing that Israel did it in similar threads on Lemmy.

Also I’ll have you know that I fuck sheep, not goats.

This is absurd conspiracy-nut level of thinking. Among other reasons because this will likely end Netanyahu’s career after the war ends, he’s no longer immediately needed and investigations start (Israelis have a history of actually doing those properly because most see it as an existential threat to not have functioning defense mechanisms), and I’m pretty sure that he knows this. Which means that the reason for him to do this anyway would be because he’s so selfless that he doesn’t care about his career or power (even though after losing his career he’s likely to face lawsuits for other things he’s done) as long as this goal is completed. I hope you see how nonsensical it is for a super-populist politician under the threat of several investigations to selflessly give up his career and power.

So random rumors spread by soldiers should be treated as truth (because its pro-team Israel )

I thought that my quote on what happened in that case pretty clearly implied that it was a screw-up. Nevertheless, it was a relatively short-lived screw up which, unlike the claims of 500 killed by a supposed Israeli strike on a hospital, didn’t seem to do any damage apart from slightly lessening the trustworthiness of media or Israel for some people.

reporting on what the ministry of health of gaza, officials in israel, and random israel soldiers all confirm

If you’re talking about the hospital strike, I haven’t seen anyone but the ministry of health of Gaza say what they said, and the ministry of health of Gaza is de facto Hamas. I do see Hamas, a terrorist organization, as implicitly less trustworthy than IDF, even though I don’t trust everything IDF says, yes.

Both are entirely possible, even at once. Also it’s not just “exactly this”, it’s generally a broader range of topics. And, to nitpick a bit, “relatively objectively” is not the same as “totally committed to the most objective possible view”.

For another example of the former, as the guy below you says, years ago this was the exact modus operandi of (the english version of) Russia Today, until it reoriented and started targeting straight up pro-russian conspiracy nuts. Sputnik I think was always a bit out there, but I’m honestly not sure.

major explosion killing 200+ people

Is there any proof of that? From what I saw the estimates kept going down and down, with various OSINT groups claiming likely proof of merely tens of people and actual intelligence agencies more conservatively 100+, but not 200. It seems unlikely that if Hamas had the bodies of 200+ people they would not even take photos for propaganda purposes.

Lies like the 40 beheaded babies that the entire western media spread?

“Lies” in this case means “reported on claims made by actual Israeli soldiers without sufficient cross-checking, but explicitly walked back pretty much immediately”, plus there are non-Israeli sources (at least one french journalist-editor and czech ambassador) who specifically say that they were shown the actual photos of beheaded babies and cross-checked them (the number 40 seems to be bullshit, but iirc most media did not report that and these people did not claim that either).

Next to that is Al Jazeera whose purpose for existing is to spread Qatari world of view by reporting relatively objectively on most things to gain trust and spreading pure propaganda on issues like most things related to Israel.

It really isn’t all that similar.

So if that’s your argument do you just believe that israel has the right to go on a conquest and slaughter palestine? Genuine question.

I don’t believe my comment indicated that. I simply don’t believe that Palestine has the right to go on a conquest and slaughter Israel either.

There are things that Israel did that I strongly disagree with, in recent history most of them are connected to West bank settlements. There are more things that I disagree with that Palestine did. I think that the 1948 UN proposed 2-state solution would have been more than reasonable, and it would have likely put Palestine into a much better position than it’s in now, but one can’t change the past. We’ll see if Israel government becomes more reasonable and thinks of a more current lasting solution, but I’m not holding my breath.

So for you, a millennia of history, distinct cultures, and dialect are meaningless.

Why do you think so? Jews also lived in the area, and the ones who came later afaik generally migrated and purchased their land legally, with the exception of migration during WW2, which was not legal, but imo pretty understandable since it was literally done by refugees running from the holocaust. People argue that it wasn’t kosher since the region was under British control, but before that it was under the control of Osmans and before that the region was afaik under control of someone who conquered it for most of its history. It has never been a country.

Obviously this doesn’t give Israel a claim over the whole region, but I don’t think they have any less of a right for existence than Palestine.