I’ve noticed in the Linux community whenever someone asks for a recommendation on a laptop that runs Linux the answer is always “Get a Thinkpad” yet Lenovo doesn’t seem to be a big Linux contributor or ally. There’s also at least six Linux/FOSS-oriented computer manufacturers now:

So what gives? Why the love for a primarily Windows-oriented laptop when there are better alternatives?

  • Corroded@leminal.space
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    1 year ago

    It comes down to price. You can buy used ThinkPads and replacement parts for them quite cheap a lot of the time.

    It’s been a while since I’ve looked at devices from places like System 76 but if I recall correctly they are still over a thousand dollars when a used ThinkPad T440P for example can be found for around two hundred dollars.

    • smoothbrain coldtakes@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      Framework laptops are interesting and I hope eventually the modularity allows the components to go down in price. Right now I was looking at a 16 (which all sold out within 3 hours of pre-order launch) but it comes out to easily over 3k CAD for a disassembled kit, skimping on RAM and an SSD.

      • WrittenWeird@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        T480 is solid as hell, had one as new in my last job, a bit heavier but very serviceable, would recommend.

      • holland@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        You can find them for much cheaper than that on eBay. I just got my wife a T490 for $125 on eBay. No SSD, but I had one sitting around.

      • promitheas@iusearchlinux.fyi
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        1 year ago

        Would also recommend the T480. Got mine for around €280 total (including shipping from ebay).

        If youre looking definitely try them out

    • IsoKiero@sopuli.xyz
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      1 year ago

      I can confirm this with personal experience. Wife has T470 (if memory serves, something around that) for 100€. That was from previous work and they offered my old laptop for cheap, so it doesn’t really count as average, but not uncommon either at least around here. I got myself T495 a while ago for 299€ from “public” market and have been purchasing couple years old thinkpads for decades now. There’s plenty of those available, they work just fine for the workload we have for laptops (I got a separate desktop for more power hungry applications) and they’ve proven to be pretty reliable workhorses since the brand was owned by IBM.

      Framework specially is really interesting approach and I’d love to test to their hardware, but they don’t have Finnish keyboard available just yet and I can get several used thinkpads for the price of one framework, so as long as I’m using my own hard earned money I rather spend it on a known brand where I already know what I’m getting into and spend considerably less money while doing so.

      Also with linux thinkpads tend to work just fine or at least there’s documentation and howtos to get everything working.

        • IsoKiero@sopuli.xyz
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          1 year ago

          Taitonetti.fi. Local shop which refurbishes and sells previously leased computers, so their selection varies quite a bit, but I’ve been a happy customer for years and they have frequent sales for the ‘last of the batch’ computers where mine came as well. However I think they don’t ship to outside of Finland, so it might not be so helpful for you.

    • Chinzon@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      I also agree with this sentiment. I got a used t440p which I used for years in school before upgrading to the framework 13. I still love my old thinkpad, but its now my cheap in home media server. I would agree that old thinkpad are easy to find and a cheap (but still very useable and still to some extent repairable) option for work and school.

    • Fuckass [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      Replacement parts are a bitch though. At least when it comes to batteries. The only battery I’ve seen with any positive reviews are Green Cell which is European, so shipping is absurd, and Duracell which no longer produces thinkpad batteries.

    • Siliconic@discuss.online
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      1 year ago

      T440P is cheap for a reason. Personally I don’t want a 6 pound laptop with a decade old CPU and a crappy TN screen. Something like a used T480 is reasonable though I guess

      • Autisticky [they/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        I use an early 2010s Thinkpad, with Ubuntu, and I can play Minecraft pretty well on it. It’s great. I don’t often carry it places, it’s a desk laptop, but I don’t know of any other affordable laptop that would have such a long useful lifespan. If you know of any, please tell me, but my experiences has made me quite the Lenovo loyalist.

  • Lee Duna@lemmy.nz
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    1 year ago

    Those linux laptops are too expensive and they are not available in some countries

    Used thinkpad is much cheaper

    • ikiru@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Maybe there’s a better place for this question, but how do you make sure a used laptop is safe? Or would removing Windows and installing Linux be enough?

      I want to buy a laptop for Linux, and would buy a used one so that it’s cheaper but I have to admit I worry about it. I know one could be worried even about new laptops and what manufacturers could be up to, but I feel like the unknown arbitrariness of a used laptop gets to me.

      • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Reinstalling the OS and formatting all drives is good enough to not walk in to viruses or spyware.

        Beyond that, they’d have to install a chip somewhere to snoop on even the basics, like a usb keylogger. Some laptops have rescue partitions and services built in that can hide nasties or vulnerabilities, but those are generally only on enterprise-sourced equipment, and can usually be turned off in the BIOS anyways.

        If you want a guarantee, though, you’ll have to take a laptop apart and confirm there’s nothing unexpected. OCD for a normie, but if you’re already paranoid…

        • ikiru@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Yeah, I am a bit paranoid because I know enough to be concerned but also lacking enough advanced technical skills to make me feel comfortable which makes me feel more paranoid. Haha

          I do mostly worry about keyloggers or something that might hang around despite formatting and new OS. So I might just end up buying new to avoid the unending paranoia that I might project onto a used laptop.

          Thanks though!

          • MotoAsh@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Could always buy from a trusted source, too. Like family or friends who are the original owners.

      • Corroded@leminal.space
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        1 year ago

        You could look into a Libreboot compatible model. When buying a used laptop for Linux the big thing you need to be careful of is a locked BIOS

        • variants@possumpat.io
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          1 year ago

          this is what Im going through right now haha, found a old laptop in our ewaste but the bios is locked, watching a few videos on how to reset the bios I have to take the whole thing apart to short out two pins, might be worth it but it is definitely a project for another day

          • Corroded@leminal.space
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            1 year ago

            Depending on the model you might want to take a look and see if something like coreboot is available while you’re at it

        • ikiru@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          That is a good point about the locked BIOS that I hadn’t thought about. Thanks for bringing that up!

        • Pantherina@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          No shit installing Linux on an Acer (even though the hardware is horrible and doesnt support Linux) was way easier than on my T495. Also the Uefi is sooo damn slow, I can only imagine what proprietary hell they put in there. The Acer Uefi is 2s, the Thinkpad Uefi is like 7s its crazy, slower than booting Linux.

      • danielton@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        You should be fine if you just wipe the drive and install the OS of your choice. That’ll get rid of whatever they may have installed on it.

  • lckdscl [they/them]@whiskers.bim.boats
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    1 year ago

    Because of better accessibility. How so?

    Because not everyone has the money to afford these new and expensive laptops designed for a niche market. They are still enthusiast-grade products, the prices speak for themselves.

    Because not everyone comes from Europe / the US, so it’s not easy to find these with affordable shipping.

    Because these laptops are only normally offered new, which, for responsible and personal ownership, is excessive. There are thousands of used hardware lying around, why not put some life back into them instead?

    It comes down to price, availability and ethical concerns. Unless money doesn’t mean anything to you, why do you need a $1000 laptop when someone wants a device for higher education or personal casual use? The world doesn’t need more rampant marketing of niche, hyped-up tech. While a fully-FOSS system may be the ideal machine for every Linux enthusiast, we live in a material world with finite resources and chasing after some unicorn laptop is unsustainable.

        • AZERTY@feddit.nl
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          1 year ago

          I always called it a nub. I haven’t used one as an adult but I could definitely see myself calling it the clit mouse.

          • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
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            1 year ago

            Nub is correct, also nubs are best laptop mouse once you get to know them.

            Edit, Lenovo now calls them “Caps” and that is lame.

              • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
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                1 year ago

                A few benefits:

                • You turn off the touch pad and then you can type without hitting the mouse
                • Using the laptop in awkward positions (crammed behind a rack for example) is a lot easier
                • Minimal movement needed to use, not going to yeet a coffee over.
                • Once you get the hang of them they seem more responsive then a touch pad and a bit more precise (opinion I know)
              • agent_flounder@lemmy.one
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                1 year ago

                Same. I had a couple of Thinkpads ages ago and just couldn’t get used to it. Not enough control over acceleration and deceleration. I guess it is nice to not have to relocate your hand from the kbd all the time but…yeah.

          • Fonzie!@ttrpg.network
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            1 year ago

            In the Netherlands, I’ve always known it as “the clit”, the same goes for my dad who’s been in the IT since the 80s.

    • ikiru@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      I love clits and nipples but I always found that nub so weird.

    • WaterWaiver@aussie.zone
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      1 year ago

      Exactly this. Second hand thinkpads are stupidly cheap – I’m currently typing on my $180AUD laptop. I never buy new.

      • Dudewitbow@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        yes. Companies goal is to essentially take in e-waste and used stuff, sort through it and pull out decent laptops/desktops wipe(or destroy) hard drive based on instructions, and resell. The company that gives us the goods gets a cutback of what’s being sold. everything else that is junk is then sorted and recycled to their respective correct facilities. Gotta use the second R in the 3 R’s and the third for whatever is considered old. What’s considered old goods is still very desirable to another company, especially companies outside of the U.S where computers may be more expensive, especially when you’re trying to get them in bulk.

        the work laptop I use is definitely used goods, in fact relevant to thread as it is a 8th gen Thinkpad T490.

          • Dudewitbow@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            very rarely sell in quantities of one, but usually some of the end clients are resellers. If you’re ever like on Amazon and find refurbished dell desktops, or any laptop in general (including apple products), there’s a decent chance it came from an e-waste organization first before being bought by a reseller in bulk. There are some companies who “bling” old desktops and resell them in the market place.

        • Fuckass [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          How much product do you move? I know there are enthusiasts buying old thinkpads, but I eidnt imagine it’s enough that a whole company can sell a bunch of them with ease

          • Dudewitbow@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            i cant give specific numbers of course, but in the hundreds/low thousands typically per order.

        • miss_brainfart@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          With everything I hear about good stuff going to waste, I highly enjoyed reading that.

          Keep doing what you do, your workplace is cool

  • Venutianxspring@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    1 year ago

    They can be found cheap as shit. I got a great t480 for less than $150 and another $50 I upgraded my RAM and battery. It’s a really nice laptop and only cost me a couple hundred.

  • arthurpizza@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    In the US a lot of business use them. It’s not uncommon to see a pallet of “old” ThinkPads at the swapmeet selling for less than $200. We’re talking x1 Carbons. These machines have upgradable SSDs, Wifi, and battery. For less than $300 you can get a BEAST of a machine that runs Linux very very well.

    • nestEggParrot@lemmy.sdf.org
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      1 year ago

      Wish i had access to such cheap hardware. Companies in my country use them till it gets junked and most refurbishers sell for maybe 20% less than brand new but with significanly reduced warranty.

  • tekeous@apollo.town
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    1 year ago

    The only good system on that list is the framework and it’s $2800 for my ideal version.

    Last year’s Thinkpad P-series goes for around $400 on eBay.

    • iopq@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      You’re comparing ideal to “will get the job done” which is a big gap

      The Thinkpad probably doesn’t have a high resolution high refresh screen, which is exactly why I’m shelling out $1400 for the Framework.

      • nyan@lemmy.cafe
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        To many of us that doesn’t matter. My secondary machine is a laptop from 2008 (not a Thinkpad, though), with a standard-for-the-time 1280x800 17" screen, and I’m fine with that, because I’d rather have a coarse 16:10 17" screen than a high-res 16:9 14-15" one. Occasional window shopping suggests that a new laptop with a screen of the same physical size as my old one would cost more than I really want to pay at the moment.

        You obviously have different priorities. That’s fine—plenty of machines of different sorts to go around—but please try not to project your priorities onto others.

        • iopq@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          If you’re happy with it, no reason to switch. I’m just saying you can’t compare different price range products

      • promitheas@iusearchlinux.fyi
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        1 year ago

        I think what hes trying to say (correct me if im wrong OP), is that not everyone needs that high end machine, so its not comparing apples to oranges as you seem to suggest. Its like comparing a Lamborghini to a regular albeit good sedan for the purpose of taking your kids to school, doing groceries, etc. If we ignore the obvious impracticalities of the Lambo for these jobs, sure its really cool, but if you can achieve the same task with the sedan (again ignoring that the Lambo might not allow you to conveniently achieve them and assuming practicality is equal so that the car analogy can fit in with the laptop question), why specifically go looking to get the Lambo?

        Edit: meant to reply to nyan@lemmy.cafe

        • iopq@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Thinkpad won’t play AAA games, it just can’t run them at a playable frame rate

          You get more when you pay more

  • circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org
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    1 year ago

    Cost.

    Older Thinkpads remain extremely capable and (crucially) highly repairable. The T series in particular is also better built (read: more solid chassis) than many others, including some on this list.

    It doesn’t make a lot of sense to support these alternatives given the absolute shock difference in cost. $300 bucks for a used T series gets you a lot from a customizability, repairability, and reliability standpoint.

    • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      It doesn’t make a lot of sense to support these alternatives given the absolute shock difference in cost. $300 bucks for a used T series gets you a lot from a customizability, repairability, and reliability standpoint.

      1. bios updates leaves you at the mercy of the manufacturer;
      2. not every bios and distro works w lenovo’s bios update utility;
      3. and your battery life & performance has a big dependency on your bios so using something that it’s not designed to handle (eg anything that’s not windows) will result in less than optimal results. 3.5) same goes for hardware eg nvidia
      • circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org
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        1 year ago

        I’ve had 4-5 such systems running Linux and never experienced any issues with BIOS.

        Obviously you shouldn’t get a model using nvidia if you want to run Linux on it (unless you are aware of the extra time it takes to set up and the other pitfalls). I do actually have a T440p with a 730m in it – and it’s fine, I just run the open-source driver.

  • Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de
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    1 year ago

    Cost and availability.

    Most of those laptops cost over 1000€ if not even closer to 2000. And they don’t seem to ship to all countries.

    While you can get a good used Thinkpad for 500€ everywhere in the world.

  • kadu@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I literally can not buy a single one of these products you mentioned in my country.

    I can easily buy a Thinkpad.

    Niche companies are extremely restricted when it comes to sales and customer support. Also, they’re computers, there’s nothing that makes them “Linux ready” other than not using weird components with driver issues.

  • Mane25@feddit.uk
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    1 year ago

    First of all I wouldn’t use a pre-installed OS (I would always wipe and install my own for security reasons).

    Secondly: Thinkpads (at least when I bought mine, last year) let you buy them without an OS and don’t charge you for it.

    Thirdly: the linked manufacturers above tend to be either US-centric and/or more expensive than Thinkpads.

    • S_H_K@dormi.zone
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      1 year ago

      I yearn for a starfighter and they send to my country but my government has an astronomical tax on anything priced over 200 dollars.

  • Sentient Loom@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    They stand the test of time, used ones can be bought at reasonable prices, there is an abundance of configurations, and they still have the best (the only good) keyboards for any laptop.