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I must admit that I eventually got used to it and even started enjoying this attitude, which I also took part in, but I was quite amazed by the Finns.
For work reasons, I had to spend three months in Espoo and the interaction with my colleagues was strangely cold in social interactions. Examples:
- In the office canteen, they would sit next to you and start eating without even greeting or making conversation. I wondered why they had chosen to sit next to me.
- When they finished eating, they would get up from the table and not say goodbye.
- The scrupulous respect for personal space: in queues, crowds, etc.
- Small talk was generally non-existent. People often preferred to stay quiet rather than chat about the weather or other common topics. Even in an elevator, silence was the norm, not the exception.
- During meetings, the Finns would often speak only when they had something substantial to contribute. The silence in between wasn’t considered awkward, but a moment of thoughtfulness and respect for others’ ideas.
I ended up enjoying this way of social interaction. It seems to me that one uses less energy in social situations. There’s less stress about having to make conversation or engage in small talks.
Love you Finland.
As an American I don’t want to interact with my coworkers. As an Italian I don’t want to either. I am so happy wfh right now. Socializing with people who aren’t my friends is not something I enjoy.
Even if it was possible to feel at ease and not in a work mindset while hanging with them, it’s just wise not to get that close, it makes it harder in future to be selective in what you divulge about your private life which can give your boss leverage over you. Sometimes you may need a “sick” day and it’s just better if they don’t know enough personal information to be able to determine how sick you are and make everything awkward.
That might seem dishonest, but there’s reasons why you might need to the employer to know only what they need to know and they aren’t necessarily laziness or incompetence. It’s a shame because it’s nice that your boss wanted to be friends but unfortunately there’s always going to be that fact that they’re your boss which gets in the way of that and everyone is better off keeping things arm’s length
Right … TIL I’m finnish and must have been adopted … cool!
This makes me want to go to Finland for a visit. The lack of small talk seems very efficient.
Maybe they wanted to conserve calories during colder climates. I wonder if other cold climates have less small talk in social settings.
“Shut up! I’m trying to stay warm here.” - Some ancient Finn
I’ve heard it’s fairly expensive place to visit though 😅
Went to Ireland for a couple weeks. I was expecting a bunch of rowdy angry drunks, and instead was met with warmth and hospitality at every turn, and constant singing/music everywhere.
Truly mind blowing
German living in Canada since 2018. Couple of things:
- There’s no bread culture. It’s all toast, with the exception of French breads. But I saw brown colored toast sold as pumpernickel. A travesty.
- The love for bland food. I know, there was a demonization campaign against salt in the 80s or something. But you gotta get over it. Feels like you’re saving salt from the cooking to put it on the road in the winter.
- The healthcare system is a joke. “bUt It’S bEtTeR tHaN iN tHe Us.” As if that’s difficult. Only difference is your dumpster isn’t on fire, yet.
- THE ABSOLUTE TRASH THAT’S SOLD AS TOILET PAPER! Honestly my biggest pet peeve. TP here is flimsy and overpriced. >1$ for a roll of 2-ply or >2$ per roll of 3-ply, but both tear if you so much as look at them the wrong way.
Look into bidets. There’s cheap seat addons you can buy but there are also portable bottle-like ones. I’ve got one of these: https://happypo.com/products/xl-bidet
Bread: you are right. It’s universally terrible. In larger cities there are European bakeries that are better.
Bland food: Yep. It’s a mix of the worst of American northwestern food with bland British food. It’s getting better though, especially in BC.
No comment on health care.
Toilet paper is this way in Canada due to so many people living with septic tanks or lagoons, I believe.
This is going to seem minor, but it was a shock to me.
I grew up in Texas. I lived in very metropolitan places – near downtown Dallas, and near the Houston medical center. So I never thought that I was culturally isolated or anything.
When I finally left the state for a job, I went to Los Angeles, circa 2007. In my first week there, a lady pulled up next to me on the street and asked me where the courthouse was. I had a vague idea, but explained that I was new to the area so my advice should be taken with a grain of salt. People familiar with the LAX area will know that the nearby courthouse is a tall building with something resembling a crown or halo, I pointed her toward that.
It wasn’t until a couple of minutes later I realized what seemed strange about the encounter. The lady was of African-American descent.
I thought back on 3 decades of living in Texas, and I cannot once remember being approached by a black stranger and asked a question. Not one single time. Houston has a large homeless population, I had many encounters with panhandlers. I couldn’t remember one single black person.
In fact, as I thought about it, a HUGE difference between Texas and California was that black folks on the street behaved very differently. In California, they looked you in the eye, they said “hello”, etc. In Texas – at least, up until I left in 2007 – black folks were strictly “heads down, eyes on your own business”. Even thinking back on some black friends and co-workers, I realized that they behaved very differently in public than my white friends did.
The whole thing made me sad for my black friends back in Texas. And now that we know how police treat black folks, I guess I can see why they behaved the way they did.
I moved from California to Texas, and that has not been my experience at all since getting here. Perhaps it’s the city I live in, but black people here seem no different than any other person, same as my experience when I lived in California. The percentage of the population that is black here is much, much higher, though.
I’ve lived in Houston my whole life and I have no idea what this guy is talking about. It’s one of the most diverse cities in the country of course we talk to each other lol.
Same here in Houston. I have no clue what this person is talking about. I have had many black people talk to me, and I work with quite a few. There’s nothing odd about our encounters.
This was not the kind of answer I was expecting. Thank you for sharing.
I grew up in Liberia in the 80s and had to leave due to the civil war. (Remember General Butt-Naked? Yeah, that war in that country) It was a crazy time, not one big shock but a string of many smaller things. For example, I would look out the school window and see a horde of students wielding machetes overrunning the school grounds - I can’t remember what they were protesting.
But coming back to Europe the biggest culture shocks were functioning waste disposal and utilities, and how clean everything was. Also it was hard for me to relate to people’s problems, because they seemed so trivial. Took me a while to adjust.
Yes! Being unable to relate to people’s problems due to triviality was also something that I faced as someone who moved from a third world to a first world country.
Yayy! You understand me! I thought my comment appeared a bit asshole-ish and was almost thinking of editing it.
In Liberia I perceived a different culture of complaining. You’ll get an earful of excuses. Much palaver and lamentation. But in the end, we’ll work something out. We might be mad now, we might laugh the issue off, but tomorrow we drink together. Or maybe not. No biggie.
I spent a few years in the US, coming from Scandinavia. It took several months before I was able to navigate the whole “strike up a conversation with anyone”-thing. The issue wasn’t so much being “forced” into conversations (which I got used to fairly quickly) as it was knowing when these interactions were considered over by the other party. I’d often, unintentionally, overstay my welcome. The general vibe and attitude were also quite different.
The biggest shock was however moving back home. I’m originally from one of the larger cities in my home country, but ended up in a tiny village through a series of coincidences. Going from a multi-million US city to a tiny Scandinavian mountain village was rough. Went from a place filled with outgoing people to a place where the cashier in the local store still took me for a tourist after having lived there for a year. An almost impenetrable society. I’ve been here for a decade now, and have long since realized that I will always be “that guy from XYZ”. On the plus side, it’s nice not having to deal with people beyond my own family an coworkers. On the negative side I have almost no sense of belonging here outside of my wife’s family who are all local.
You need to join a club or take a class. That is the Norwegian way of breaking the silence. Instant connection.
Same here in Switzerland. After university I moved to my new job and for a good while I basically had no friends here. The vast majority of the people I hang out with are either family, are from a club I joined, from the club I started or came “attached” to someone from those categories.
People from other countries are also much easier to get to know. After that it’s Norwegians who have experience abroad. But clubs and classes definitely work.
Clubs are a good place to meet people for sure. :)
That whole local vs not is kind of crazy though. I know of a guy who’s been here for 40 years, huge part of the local community, everyone knows him - and everyone still referes to him as “the guy from the north”. I find it equal parts hilarious/sad-ish. I dread to think what it would feel like to be a foreigner here, and not just some guy who moved in from a city a few hours down the road. I get it though on some level, historically it’s been a very isolated community, and even now getting here (or getting away) can be difficult, practically speaking, in the winter months.
Oof. I feel this one. I spent most of my childhood in - what we consider - a small city (10k people). My school class was like 20 kids with a few different ethnic backgrounds. Then we moved to a mountain town where the elevation (in meters) was a multiple of the population count, my class (including the neighboring villages) was 4 and there was exactly one family who didn’t look like they were at least 20 generations Swiss.
My dad is a very outgoing person, passionate volunteer firemen (most towns here have their fire department on a volunteer basis), contributed to the town council, was pretty religious (BIG up there, when there was a mass during the day then all the classes from school attended) - but they literally were just happy to take his work but not give anything back. The protestant priest from the neighboring village checked in on our family (protestant) and him (catholic) more often than our “our” priest. My mom befriended another “immigrant” family who had been there for 10-20 years and basically had NO connections in town. My father made 1 good friend and 1 good acquaintance at work.
For us kids it was a lot easier. The other kids were welcoming and friendly and even the adults were somewhat accomodating to us. But I was approaching adulthood and started to experience this myself. Town tradition was that for christmas the oldest kids in primary school would dress up as the 3 magi and lead the younger ones around town to sing christmas songs. And they would also participate in the christmas mass. They were in a pickle that year as from a class of 4, half were protestant heathens. I was still expected to stand in the front of the church as ornament but when the edible paper was distributed I was rudely shoved away.
When I first came to US, I was very shocked by how talkative Americans are, especially to strangers. Ngl, I was a bit annoyed at first. Then I realized that’s just the way they are.
I’m an American who finds this trait very annoying. People do not know when to shut up, and they tell you the most personal things!
yep, and I am too timid to ever end the conversation
so now I have to hear Larry’s entire life story, or about how Wanda’s cousin has bowel cancer
I immigrated to Vietnam. That was ok.
Visiting north America again years later was quite a shock!
Going home after living abroad was a way bigger shock to me than living abroad was too. You suddenly see your own culture from outside.
I left home for a little over a year, here I am almost a decade later fascinated people here can’t see that things can work so much better than they currently do.
Can you explain more about this? What was shocking about it?
Ack, my long response got eaten.
I guess in North America, people I know seem to think that developing countries in Asia are these oppressive, miserable places.
While I do technically live in a slum, it’s safer and the residents are happier than any place I’ve been in Canada. The people here have so much freedom to do the things that matter! The barrier to starting a business is very close to zero, zoning and tax laws are not prohibitive either. You can do whatever you want with your home – no home owner’s association. Raise chickens on your roof, if that’s what you want to do. Anything not dangerous is OK – maybe talk to your neighbors first if it’s something unusual.
Going back to North America is something I do for family. It’s inconvenient, everything is far apart and empty, it feels dead. The food is less good. People are angry and divided about politics. There’s some low-but-everpresent degree of hostility towards people who look like foreigners, and overall it seems people have somewhat strange ideas about Asia. It’s not terrible, and there are many good things there too (it is clean and many forests!), but I feel woefully out of place.
Interacting with people from North America who visit Vietnam has always been the biggest cultural shock though. Often, they outright ask me how to commit crimes (I maintain a presence online to answer questions for confused tourists – Vietnam is not that accessible sometimes). Work permit compliance is low, also many fake university degrees and fake passports. Lots of people running MLM and crypto scams. Many drive without any valid license, and if they hit someone they flee back home. I met many selling drugs illegally (I wasn’t looking for them, either). It used to be shockingly bad. On the bright side, it drove me to integrate culturally and pay careful attention to my immigration paperwork.
So I guess I consider myself culturally Asian now, which I suppose is a reasonable outcome after 10 years. The language is still hard for me though, I still speak like a child – running a business doesn’t leave so much time to study human languages.
Nowadays, we’re getting more qualified professionals and tourists that are decent people, so things are generally way better than they were 5 or 6 years ago. Overall the things I’ve seen make me ashamed though. I don’t think any amount of progress can really wash that feeling away. I try to assist tourists online as a way to prevent myself from turning that shame into prejudice.
If you can afford it, I found that the Pimsleur technique taught me how to speak well better than anything else I tried. I’ve forgotten the Spanish I know because I didn’t keep using it, but it got me to a decent adult conversational level in about a month at half an hour a day and I was always speaking ‘adult’ sentences right from the start, both copying then making new ones.
It’s more a problem of economics. I’ve optimized my life to accomplish a single goal. There is no room for anything else. Time is the most expensive thing right now.
I had zero dollars and a company license 6 or 7 years ago, so my focus has been bootstrapping myself into land+home ownership, which is very expensive here. A home in Vietnam is much more expensive than what you’d expect considering the cost of everything else.
So I’ve spent 100% of my time studying whatever I think will make me the most money. This has typically been technology and programming languages, with some brief forays into economics, finance, law, and accounting. I studied the Vietnamese enough to deal with daily life only. I can’t really socialize in Vietnamese very well, but then again, I don’t have a social life in any language.
It’s intense, but going well. If I continue at this rate, I’ll be able to retire after a career of about 10 years (so a couple more years). Then I can learn Vietnamese. Maybe I’ll learn to paint too, or run a machine shop, or help students build their careers!
Very good luck with all of that!
When I started using the internet, it was a shock, because I got in contact with people from different places and realized how poor I am :(
Even today, I get cultural shocks here and there. Just this week, someone mentioned what they consider the bare minimum specs for a phone they consider to be viable for simple usage, and guess what? My phone doesn’t have half of these specs.
Had a functional iphone 5 I wanted to give away to someone, for use as a child phone or temporary replacement for a broken phone. Went to my local buy-nothing group, found several people asking for a free iphone to replace a broken or missing phone, every one of them saying “any old phone is fine, 12 or above”. I’m still using iphone 8…
Visited Guatemala and while driving down a rural road saw a kid around 8 years old riding a horse wielding a machete. Also saw the military with AK’s patrolling the mall.
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Haha, reminds me of the scene in the beginning of the film The Gods must be Crazy where you see someone getting in the car to drive down the driveway to pick up the mail.
I had a friend in school who went to South Africa for half a year and he was mugged several times. He always had like 20 Dollars of cash on him to get out of the situation. That was 15 years ago, no idea what it’s like now.
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Definitely my trip to Qatar.
Once I was standing in a public place, there was a performance on a temporary stage. I was approached by the local law enforcement, I couldn’t be there. Left side of the stage was for families only, right side was for everyone. Restaurants sometimes also had 2 doors, as if they were different restaurants. Left was for families, right was for everyone else.
Male friends holding hands and kissing in the face, as a gesture of friendship. Not that holding hands is weird, just found it odd on a country that stones gay people. Public affections between male and female was very rare.
All women wore hijab, others wore an additional piece of cloth that covered her entire head. It was very awkward to see them driving cars in this attire.
Then there was Ramadan. That made life a while lot harder.
How big “anti-imperialism” is as an ideology in countries ravaged by America and the former Soviet-bloc.
I’m of Iraqi descent and whenever I visit home I see people supporting extreme ideologies like Islamism or Stalinism or some unholy mix between the two, which is always nuts for me. They are super-political, but they never vote, because that means the “imperialist system wins”. They use anti-imperialism as a justification for anti-LGBT, anti-feminist, anti-democratic, anti-religious and anti-secularist hate.
Otherwise the people are very nice, but if any major political/cultural topic is being mentioned, they go full doomer mode.
I get why anti-imperialism is so big in Iraq, but actually experiencing it, is really crazy.
How prevalent alcohol culture is in the West. I’m Southeast Asian and it’s more common for us to drink sugary drinks and have food at the local corner restaurant at night instead of having alcohol when we spend time with friends.
When I studied in the West, it really struck me how the only place you really could hang out at night was the bar, and alcohol was often the preferred drink. And they normally closed at 12am, so you can’t even stay out that late.
Personally I’m not very fond of inebriation just due to the issues it creates (not that my friends were alcoholics and got blackout drunk every time we hung out), so I found it kind of bad that it’s so socially accepted to see a need to get drunk in order to tolerate socialising with friends.
I’m not much of a drinker myself but. Some people use alcohol because it makes them “open up” and it’s easier for them to have fun that way. (this is what the finnish song “cha cha cha” is about.)
The Finnish song Cha Cha Cha is awesome. It should have won Eurovision!
Australian here, we have the same culture but it doesn’t finish at 12am, I found the Cinderella rule in the USA weird.
Here in NYC last call is 4am. Whenever I travel I always find it really weird that most places in the US close so early.
as someone from Berlin, it’s wild that you even have a “last call” rule in so many places/countries. Bars and clubs here can just decide themselves, when they want to close. There are even a few 24/7 places.
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Plenty of people in the West find the alcohol culture frustrating, especially recovering alcoholics. Personally I can’t drink much, so I tend to find myself sipping on a cranberry juice.
Well, I personally get drunk quicker due to metabolism and my hangover starts the same day.
That is, compared to most Europeans, but I’ve heard that for SE Asia this would actually be the norm.
So one can say in this case culture just follows structural difference.
But - yes, it’s much nicer to be with friends when they are not drunk.
Except for beer, there are weaker sorts, and the effect of hops on people I actually like.
I went to India (New Delhi, Goa, Chennai, Jaipur) as a middle class Canadian.
People hanging off the side of busses, monkeys running around everywhere, open sewage, cows eating garbage on the side of the road, literally everyone staring at me, tons of people following me trying to give me directions to tourist sites, different views on personal space.
Shit was wild.
