The Israeli rescue service Zaka says its paramedics removed more than 260 bodies from a music festival that came under attack by Hamas militants.

The total figure of bodies found is expected to be higher, as other paramedic teams were also working in the area and Zaka added that the bodies “haven’t all been collected yet”.

Early on Saturday morning, Hamas targeted Nova music festival, a techno rave in the desert near the border with Gaza.

Videos shared on social media and by Israeli news outlets showed dozens of festival-goers running through an open field as gunshots rang out. Many hid in nearby fruit orchards or were gunned down as they fled.

  • BB69@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    241
    arrow-down
    63
    ·
    1 year ago

    Wholesale slaughter of innocents? What a way to show Palestinians are the ones we should support.

    • there1snospoon@ttrpg.network
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      156
      arrow-down
      88
      ·
      1 year ago

      I had been pretty much on the Palestinian side of the conflict for some time.

      This attack has absolutely burnt any goodwill I had for the Palestinian cause. If Mexico attacked America in this manner, we would likely own everything south of the Gulf of California.

      I cannot fathom what Hamas thought would come of this.

      • NAXLAB@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        191
        arrow-down
        37
        ·
        1 year ago

        “Palestine” is not the one that did this. Hamas is a terrorist group, and their actions do not justify the fact that the Israeli government operates an apartheid state where people are given rights, status, and property on the basis of race, and also participates in the slaughter of innocent people.

        This isn’t a “whoever’s worse should lose” situation. Israel commits human rights violations and Hamas is a terrorist group.

        • BB69@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          86
          arrow-down
          74
          ·
          1 year ago

          Hamas is the governing body of Palestine.

          It was Palestine who did this.

          • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            82
            arrow-down
            6
            ·
            1 year ago

            Strictly speaking, it’s the governing body of Gaza, which hasn’t held elections in well over a decade. The West Bank is governed by the party Fatah, which is much less militant.

            There is, however, the awkward truth that the West Bank has also not held elections in a long time, precisely because Hamas would probably win them.

            • flossdaily@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              39
              arrow-down
              10
              ·
              1 year ago

              At last count, Hamas had something like a 75 percent approval rating in Gaza.

              The support among all Palestinians is just over 50 percent.

              Only 14 percent support the opposition party.

              • ubermeisters@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                19
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                1 year ago

                Political statistics are so fucking weaponized now, that I find it laughable that you would trust the methodology used enough to back an argument of this scale with figures like this.

                • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  People trash studies constantly as if they know the one thing wrong with it that just makes it all a lie.

                  No, most studies are pretty damn robust. There are numerous well known statistical analysis methods that fall in line with real life outcomes despite limited n.

                  Chances are, unless you’re a statistics analyst publishing polls yourself, your methodoligies aren’t better.

                  You can almost always find the reputable studies papers or methods too. They don’t exactly hide them.

                  Keep harping about how they’re wrong though when properly cited. It just paints a red flag on your head lol.

          • Jaderick@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            63
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            1 year ago

            By this logic all Iranians support their current Islamist government, which everyone and their mother knows to not be true.

            • P03 Locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              5
              arrow-down
              8
              ·
              1 year ago

              Did Germany support everything the Nazis did? No, not every citizen, but it was enough support to give Hitler his rise to power and descend into WWII.

              Did Afghanistan support everything the Taliban did? No, but war was the only response to 9/11.

              In the end, war sucks and many innocent people will be caught in the crossfire. But, I don’t see any other end result out of this. Israel has been so beaten down by terrorist attacks and hostility since literally the day the country was formed that war is the only way forward. They have tried every other option for the last 50 years.

              • MrBusinessMan@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                9
                arrow-down
                4
                ·
                1 year ago

                So in the end, every Israeli citizen is responsible for all of this violence, since it’s their government doing the ethnic cleansing and apartheid. They actually elected the fascists who have a million times more power than Hamas to end all of this, so every Israeli is basically evil. Thanks for clearing that up for us!

            • BB69@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              12
              arrow-down
              15
              ·
              1 year ago

              My government doesn’t have a 75% approval rating like Hamas does.

            • Ulv@feddit.nu
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              11
              arrow-down
              30
              ·
              1 year ago

              No but i still am part of my country. Every thing my government does represents my country and therefore me.

          • Eldritch@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            51
            arrow-down
            13
            ·
            1 year ago

            That’s like saying when Republicans do something stupid. It’s America. It’s not. There’s far more going on. And that’s just disingenuous.

            • can@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              15
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              The lack of nuance displayed around here sometimes is truly disturbing.

              • Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                8
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                “Them versus us” mentality is very prominent in modern society and it’s only gotten worse. Not just in the context of conflicts, it’s a general problem.

          • njm1314@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            34
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. They don’t control the West Bank where the majority of Palestinians live.

          • ubermeisters@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            23
            arrow-down
            13
            ·
            1 year ago

            I see your intent here but you’re going to have to say you killed all the Iraqis and Afghanis who didn’t deserve to die in our wars in the middle east, if you’re going to say Palestine is the one who did this.

            Sometimes bodies meant to represent and govern in fact do not represent while they govern.

            • TheYear2525@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              28
              arrow-down
              8
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              you’re going to have to say you killed

              No, to be consistent they’d have to say America killed them. No need to switch from blaming a country to blaming an individual citizen.

              I think a majority of Americans would admit America killed them.

              • Synnr@sopuli.xyz
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                17
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                I think it’s quite obvious they were using the royal ‘you’, as in America (almost every American assumes everyone else is also American in the internet unless otherwise stated).

                And they’re right, American soldiers did unspeakable things in Afghanistan and Iraq, but that doesn’t mean all Americans are responsible for the decisions those soldiers made.

                  • can@sh.itjust.works
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    3
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    I do hope you’ll appreciate that everyone isn’t American though and assuming any given poster is is borderline insulting.

              • dx1@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Forget about consistency, this is just flat out incorrect. You’re trying to equate two different distinct sets of people, one of which contains the other.

                Group A (superset) includes Bob, Alice, Sue, Mike, Cole, Anthony, Tony, Joanna, and Jerry.

                Group B (subset #1) includes Bob, Alice, Sue, Mike. They voted for Anthony to run group A and received a majority, so Anthony assumed power.

                Group C (subset #2) includes Anthony, Sue, Mike, and Joanna. They form a government and military over/of group A. They kill a bunch of people.

                Group C is NOT EQUAL TO group A. Period. No argument, no “but what if”, they are two different groups. Note that Cole, Tony and Jerry (group D) are flatly not represented in any way by the actions of group C.

        • Nevoic@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          I hate the phrasing “terrorist group” here. Not because what happened here wasn’t an atrocity, but because people generally refuse to call state-backed violence “terrorist” violence. The word terrorism is incredibly broad, easily describing a ton of things Israel does. Yet, we refuse to call them a terrorist organization.

          Israel slaughtered hundreds of protesters 4 years ago in Gaza.

          Israel and Egypt have been blockading the Gaza strip in violation of the GCIV since 2007.

          In 2014, a triple-homicide was committed. Israel claimed it was Hamas, and arrested hundreds of Palestinians. Hamas sent rockets into Israel, killing 2 people, and Israel initiated Operation Protective Edge, killing thousands of Palestinians.

          Not to mention the entire Israel-Palestine conflict can be traced back about 100 years, where imperialist Britain endorsed the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine in the Balfour Declaration. Eventually leading to the formation of Israel in the late 40s and the subsequent ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, forcing nearly a million natives to move to make way for Israel.

          “terrorism” is politically charged language with the intent of making us sympathize with a certain side. Of course we’ll side with the “Israel state” and against the “Hamas terrorist group”. The language used to describe these groups already prescribes how we should view them. Western media will never describe Israel’s atrocities as terrorist actions, so people will dismiss the slaughter of tens or even hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians as “just war”.

        • Cryptic Fawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          12
          ·
          1 year ago

          “Palestine” is not the one that did this.

          Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas. They allowed this shit to fester.

      • falconhoof@artemis.camp
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        127
        arrow-down
        11
        ·
        1 year ago

        We shouldn’t conflate the people of Isreal with the extremist State of Isreal, we shouldn’t conflate the people of Palestine with Hamas. Atrocities have been committed on both sides and each one is an atrocity, but the fact remains that the Palestinian people are living under an apartheid and therefore should be supported despite acts committed by extremists in it’s name. This situation shouldn’t be reduced to a simplistic one-sided team sport. Palestine still needs liberating.

        • 5BC2E7@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          27
          arrow-down
          48
          ·
          1 year ago

          It’s difficult to not conflate them with hammas when 80% supprts them and celebrated the attack

              • Solar Bear@slrpnk.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                7
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                You expect me to believe you would simply leave behind the place you were born and all of your loved ones?

                • 5BC2E7@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  5
                  arrow-down
                  7
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Already did so actually and it wasn’t even comparable to the situation in gaza so yes , I would definitely leave … I don’t care if you don’t believe me.

                  Edit: actually you can search my comments from before the recent attacks and find a few that support the fact i am an expatriate.

                  • Solar Bear@slrpnk.net
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    4
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Fair enough. From what country are you a refugee, if you don’t mind me asking?

              • MrBusinessMan@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                6
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                "Sorry bucko gate is locked, if you even get too close to it an Israeli sniper shoots you in the knee (be grateful next time it’s the head!). Get back in the cage! "

                Ok, now what do you do?

              • dx1@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                My source is a comprehensive poll covering a bunch of different topics. Most centrally:

                If new parliamentary elections were held today with the participation of all political forces that participated in the 2006 elections, 64% say they would participate in them, and among these participants, Fateh receives 36%, Hamas’ Change and Reform 34%, all other lists combined 9%, and 21% say they have not yet decided whom they will vote for. Three months ago, vote for Hamas stood at 34% and Fatah at 33%. Vote for Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands today at 44% (compared to 44% three months ago) and for Fateh at 32% (compared to 28% three months ago). In the West Bank, vote for Hamas stands at 24% (compared to 25% three months ago) and Fatah at 40% (compared to 34% three months ago).

                A little over a quarter (27%) believe that Hamas is the most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people today while 24% believe that Fateh under the leadership of Abbas is more deserving; 44% believe both are unworthy of representation and leadership. Three months ago, 31% said Hamas is the most deserving, 21% said Fateh led by Abbas is the most deserving, and 43% said both are unworthy of representation and leadership.

                which isn’t even close to 80% no matter how you look at it.

                Your NBC News one says this:

                The group’s popularity grew after a two-week conflict with Israel in 2021, with roughly 75% of those polled viewing Hamas as safeguarding the Al-Aqsa Mosque and other Muslim holy sites in East Jerusalem.

                which is a very different thing than general approval…

      • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        57
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        Hamas isn’t a rational actor fighting for a free Palestine; their one and only goal - literally written into their charter - is to eradicate every Jew from the land by force.

        Every Jew they kill is a victory for them; there’s nothing more to it.

      • Madison420@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        62
        arrow-down
        24
        ·
        1 year ago

        The us doesn’t hold Mexico or Mexicans in an open air concentration camp we regularly demolish buildings in with war munitions for simple allegation with no due process.

        I’m going to bet it’s going to come out that this is essentially Iran and other countries sending mercs to act as Hamas just as the last major offensive was.

        • flossdaily@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          25
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          The native Americans would beg to differ about how the United States treated the people who were here before them.

          • Madison420@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            21
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            I’m talking about Mexico today currently as was the person I replied to, and yes as a native I’m aware how shitty the us still treat its native populaces.

            • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              6
              arrow-down
              16
              ·
              1 year ago

              Shitty treatment? They were genocided and those that survived were pushed into little strips of leftover land. Hundreds of millions of colonists are happily living on the stolen land with plenty of excuses not to leave.

                • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  5
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  If someone minimizes genocide and oppression I’ll explain it to anybody that needs it tbh

                • Aceticon@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  5
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  C’mon, in the middle of all this shit, it was a small moment of humour.

                  I for one will take any and all little silver lining I can get in the middle of this shit, even if its just a momentary small laugh.

              • Madison420@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                9
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                What part of I’m aware are you confused about. Moreover you’re arguing but you clearly don’t have a point, please get to it.

                • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  5
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Well you seem to be claiming the the analogy of the US retaliating in a no holds barred style against a Mexican attack should not be made, because the US hasn’t acted as bad to warrant such an attack. But that is of course beside the point itself as the above poster stated.

                  The US has done a lot worse than Israel. They annihilated more than 95% of the natives ffs. 5 million people.

                  Would there be much support if people of Native American ancestry attacked a music festival and killed 500?

                  • Madison420@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    7
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    They are different situations, I’m not saying you can’t compare them but to do so it’s fairly pointless and irrelevant. I can compare a housecat and then planet Mercury but what honestly is the point?

                    Arguable to say worse just more and over a longer time since worse is a matter of opinion.

                    We don’t have to guess, we just need to see how the feds cleared Alcatraz during a peaceful occupation of land that was still native by treaty.

        • VikingHippie@lemmy.wtf
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          13
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          The us doesn’t hold Mexico or Mexicans in an open air concentration camp

          True. The concentration camps on and near the US-Mexican border aren’t open air.

        • ThatGirlKylie@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          6
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          There was already an article out that said Iran helped hamas.

          Tehran is saying they didn’t do it. But articles from wsj and the like have said they did help.

        • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          6
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          1 year ago

          There is no justification for what they’ve done. Senseless violence breeds senseless violence, but we can still blame those who do violence. Everyone subjected to Israel’s abuse isn’t killing civilians.

          At this point it seems clear to me that Hamas is just using the Palestinians and doesn’t actually care about them.

          • Madison420@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            You’re arguing a point I never made. Point to where I excuse the behavior, I’ll wait.

            Duh, they were an ultra religious sect Israel allowed to exist because they were actively fighting the same enemy, secular Palestinians.

            • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Apologies. I didn’t mean to suggest you were excusing it, but my wording certainly implies I did. I just wanted to say that observing the geopolitical cause is different from excusing the murderers – which you’ve just pointed out.

              Israel’s far right government and Hamas have an unholy union where they hurt Israeli and Palestinian civilians alike. Too many people conflate this with all Israelis and all Palestinians though :/

              • Madison420@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                Bingo. Most Israeli aren’t zionists but all accounts, most Palestinians aren’t terrorists or even Muslim at this point iirc though frankly the religion is just an excuse to be shitty on all sides. Christians need an Israeli controlled holy land for their end days to happen, Islam wants all of the holy land to exclude Jews especially but Christians also, Israel wants all of Israel because a book says so. It’s fucking absurd.

        • there1snospoon@ttrpg.network
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Can you link where that was determined to be the case in their last offensive? Would genuinely like to read this if true.

      • tiny_tina_@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        49
        arrow-down
        13
        ·
        1 year ago

        Dont forget the paraded naked woman that was spit on by people. Hamas are savages who are funded by Iran

      • paddirn@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        40
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        Had it been attacks on only military targets, that’d be one thing. I understand that this has been a long, drawn-out conflict and Israel has killed a large number of civilians themselves and have, meter-by-meter, been taking more land away from the Palestinians (essentially committing slow-motion genocide). I get that, Israel the country isn’t innocent, BUT civilians should never be considered legitimate targets by either side in the conflict. Hamas isn’t helping their cause any with these attacks.

        • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Hamas is not Palestine. There’s why they’ve done this. The attack and all their actions just hurt Palestinians, and they don’t care. They use Palestinians regularly as living hostages.

      • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        27
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        This was an Iranian funded terrorist group, not a Palestinian liberation group. They claim to help the latter, but this attack makes it obvious they don’t give a shit about Palestinians, they just sent to hurt Israelis. Everyone is better off if the group can be destroyed.

      • esc27@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        I’m starting to wonder if that is the point. Groups like Hamas thrive on anger and conflict.

      • DeriHunter@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        7
        ·
        1 year ago

        I’m both glad and sorry that this is what made you understand, hamas was like that ever since u remember myself, Israel never start those clashes. They always shoot hiding behind kindergartens, women and elderly people while the shoot thousands of missiles.

        The only difference between previous ones to this one is that the caught us off guard

      • sederx@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        so 0.05% of the population can make you change your political view about 2 millions people(plus people in west bank because fuck em right?)

        then you never supported a free palestine

      • MrBusinessMan@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        You support Palestine while they do nothing and go like sheep to the slaughter. Once they fight back to avoid their own anhilation you no longer support them. In the end, you support genocide.

      • flossdaily@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        18
        arrow-down
        24
        ·
        1 year ago

        This is who they have always been. In over half a century of conflict they have only ever chosen terrorism. Never once have they tried to achieve their goals through passive resistance, despite the historical lessons of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr, that this is the only strategy that works against overwhelming military force.

        And the reason they haven’t tried it is because peaceful coexistance is not their goal. They want Israel destroyed, and have shown the world for the better part of a century that they will settle for literally nothing less.

        • acargitz@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          11
          ·
          1 year ago

          That is patently false. Of course Palestinians have been using non violent civil society tactics for a very long time. What do you think the vilified BDS movement was/is about? Looking for a Mandela figure? Look up Marwan Barghouti. The problem is that every time moderate Palestinians become even a tiny bit successful at making their voice heard internally or externally, either Israel in an official capacity or the dominant nationalist Israeli political powers and their allies within and without move in to completely stifle them. This in turn allows only the most extreme Palestinian voices to survive, since in the absence of a public opinion with a Conscience and a Decency to listen to NV movements, extreme violent movements are the only ones that can thrive on persecution.

        • Krono@lemmy.today
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          ·
          1 year ago

          Palestinian passive resistance is well documented.

          You should educate yourself on things like the Great March of Return. Palestinians (and yes, Hamas too) marched peacefully for over a year near the border fence that entraps them. Israel responded by killing over 200 people and injuring over 9000.

          If you’re in the mood to get angry, go to youtube and look up interviews with IDF soldiers who did the shooting. Many smile and laugh as they brag about shooting unarmed civilians.

          • flossdaily@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            7
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            ROFL

            Most protested peacefully, far from the border fence. However, groups mainly comprising young men approached the fence and engaged in violent actions directed towards the Israeli side. Israeli officials argued that Hamas used the demonstrations as cover for launching attacks against Israel

        • protovack@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          9
          ·
          1 year ago

          exactly, but that won’t stop people from continuing to try to justify it, due to their own inherent anti-semitism and anger at the christian church from crimes committed centuries ago

        • Yawnder@lemmy.zip
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          29
          arrow-down
          8
          ·
          1 year ago

          So there is a terrorist state next door that terrorises them, that chases them from their houses, kills them, etc., but they should fight the other terrorist group that fights for them, albeit the very wrong way?

          • P03 Locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            9
            arrow-down
            15
            ·
            1 year ago

            If they value their statehood, yes.

            If Germany took care of their Nazi problem before it festered, the rest of the world wouldn’t have had to deal with the entirety of World War II, and German citizens wouldn’t have been punished with the brutal East/West division of its country. Countries should not tolerate fascism and terrorism within their own ranks, no matter who’s side they are on.

            • Yawnder@lemmy.zip
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              16
              arrow-down
              5
              ·
              1 year ago

              You would say, with a straight face, that this would make their lives better? To have a civil / internal war mostly against a terrorist organisation, while not even a year ago their US sponsored terrorist state nextdoor were still reporting their citizens, stealing their homes and murdering their people with the whole world just going “Oh well, they’re just Arabs. GO Ukraine!”

            • MrBusinessMan@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              7
              arrow-down
              5
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              So Israel should first overthrow and destroy the Likud party and most of the rest of their parties, which are all fascist, instead of dropping more bombs on Gaza.

        • SlikPikker@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          12
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          Overthrow the violent military group holding them hostage?

          That’s had Israel’ tactic approval to act as preferred enemy, which has international support?

          Good fucking luck.

          • mwguy@infosec.pub
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            1 year ago

            In Gaza, they did in the mid 2000s. They even evicted all Jewish settlers and settlements, some at gunpoint; in an effort to secure peace.

        • RedAggroBest@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          1 year ago

          Palestine

          And what government body do you propose is “Palestine”. This is why Israel is an apartheid state.

        • bobman@unilem.org
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          8
          arrow-down
          14
          ·
          1 year ago

          I’m sure Hamas thought the same thing about Israeli citizens and the Gaza blockade.

          Remember everyone: It’s okay when white people do it.

      • Genericusername@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        29
        arrow-down
        20
        ·
        1 year ago

        Remind me how many Palestinians support Hamas and its ideology. You cannot make this comparison. Nothing Israel ever did comes near these levels of brutality.

        • MrBusinessMan@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          14
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Israel literally kills more civilians and children than Hamas does. They are quite literally more brutal, more violent, and are the clear aggressor in the conflict so have less excuse for all of it. Palestine is not occupying Israel.

        • sederx@programming.dev
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          90% of the dead people in this conflict are Palestinians. this is a walk int he park comparatively for israel

      • BB69@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        38
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        The people slaughtered at the music festival were foreign nationals. They had nothing to do with this conflict.

        • abort_christian_babies@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          21
          arrow-down
          7
          ·
          1 year ago

          Understood, thank you.

          I’m pointing out it’s possible and probably accurate to be critical of both at fault parties in this scenario.

          Israel shoulders some of the responsibility for their own real world cause and effect.

          • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            12
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            I’ve come to realize that a lot of statements we have about violence causing violence and cause and effect and such are observational, objective statements.

            For instance, you saying Israel shoulders responsibility for cause and effect is a geopolitical analysis on why this attack occurred. It isn’t a judgment that says the attack is Israel’s fault – the blame lies squarely with the actual terrorists. Talking about the event itself is different from talking about the event geopolitically.

            I know you probably already know this, but I’m still coming to grips with this duality.

    • drekly@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      74
      arrow-down
      70
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      It’s always those pesky Palestinians doing the slaughtering! For 75 years!

      That’s how they’ve been taking more and more land from Israel and they even build a gigantic illegal wall to box those poor Israelis in and stop them being able to leave freely! And with their military backing and funding from giant powerhouses in the west, those poor Israelis don’t stand a chance, it’s about time they fought back and stood up for themselves! They should defend their homes just like Ukraine!

      Wait…

      • flossdaily@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        67
        arrow-down
        19
        ·
        1 year ago

        This is a chart that shows one thing only: Israel has the stronger military.

        It doesn’t say a thing about who attempted to kill more civilians, and who took steps to avoid civilian deaths. It doesn’t say anything about who has made concessions for peace, and who has walked away from peace deals for almost a century.

        If you think this chart shows that Israel is the bad guy, you would absolutely shit yourself if you saw a similar chart comparing the US and Nazi Germany.

        • drekly@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          20
          arrow-down
          35
          ·
          1 year ago

          If someone breaks into your house and says “give me this house and all your stuff or I’ll kill you and your family” and you refuse, so they kill you and take your house, are you in the wrong for not accepting their peace deal?

          • flossdaily@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            37
            arrow-down
            15
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            That’s a terrible analogy because it doesn’t fit the fact that for all kinds of reasons.

            But for the sake of argument, let’s accept part of your basic premise.

            Let’s assume that decades ago someone took over half of your grandma’s house (in which your large family lives). You’re super pissed that you have been relegated to half of what you still think of as your house.

            The people in “your” house with you are much, much, much, much tougher than you, and you will never, ever, ever get them out by force.

            The people in your house with you have tried time and again to come to a peaceful living situation with you, but you hate them so much that you have refused literally every single offer to live in harmony.

            You constantly throw rocks at their children. Every once in a while you kill one of their children.

            You do this while hiding behind your own children, so that if they fight back and shoot you, there’s a very good chance they’ll hit your children.

            This is fine with you because you value the news story this will create more than you value the life of your own child.

            The people in “your” house have the deed to the house, and have the might to do whatever they want with the house, and ask the neighbors recognize it is their house, even if they sometimes grumble about it.

            The people in “your” house build a fence through the middle of the house to prevent you from killing their children, which you are still trying to do every single day.

            The people in your house make sure you get food and water, but they are so sick of your violent behavior that they are choking you off from luxuries or prosperity of any kind.

            You know your children could have a better life if you just accepted that you’ll never get the whole house back. Heck, if you asked nicely, you could probably still get a deed to the part of the house your live in. You could pass that on to your kids. They could rebuild. They could thrive by working with the people in “your” house.

            But you hate the people in your house more than you love your own kids. So you keep this futile, hopeless, fighting going. And every day you wake up trying to kill their children.

            • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              10
              ·
              1 year ago

              Good analogy, but it conflates Palestinians and Hamas. The latter is like a security guard that’s shown up and claims to help you, but is only concerned with hurting the other family and hides behind your kids, putting them at risk.

              It’s also noteworthy that the “someone” at the beginning isn’t actually Israel even! You lived in the house, but it technically owned by Britain. The British told you to make room for a new family to live there, and the British arbitrarily decided what things were yours and what was theirs. The other family were originally refugees, and the rest of their family has been slaughtered.

              The root of all of this was Britain arbitrarily drawing lines and ignoring where people were living. The exact same thing happened with India and its partition. The British listened to a Muslim nationalist and the whole country burned because of the arbitrary lines they drew. Gandhi’s intercession helped part of the country return to peace and stop the violence – and he was ultimately killed by a Hindu nationalist.

              I’ve made a huge digression, but my point is everyone keeps fucking the Palestinians, including Hamas.

              • flossdaily@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                29
                arrow-down
                13
                ·
                1 year ago

                You think that’s bad?! You should see the chart of the evil United States low casualties versus the poor innocent Nazi casualties during WWII.

                Everyone knows that body count tells the whole story!

                • drekly@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  6
                  arrow-down
                  11
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Once again, was it the us invading a country and stealing it’s land? Or were they defending against someone trying to do that?

              • P03 Locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                7
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                1 year ago

                I can post random images of “facts”, too:

                xkcd: Heatmap

                See, look at my post! I posted an image! Look at meeeeeeeee!!!

      • nyctre@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        33
        arrow-down
        10
        ·
        1 year ago

        Yes, all revolutions in the history of the world are famous for rising against evil teenagers who were oppressing them.

        • drekly@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          arrow-down
          15
          ·
          1 year ago

          Let’s hope Russia doesn’t start holding music festivals in Bakhmut

      • e_mc2@feddit.nl
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        32
        arrow-down
        20
        ·
        1 year ago

        And exactly how does your argument justify these atrocities? This is whataboutism pur sang. Don’t get me wrong, the atrocities Israel has carried out are equally appalling, but that doesn’t justify what happened at that festival. This will likely only weaken the support the Palestinians have in the west.

        • vind@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          48
          arrow-down
          16
          ·
          1 year ago

          It doesn’t justify the atrocities, but to immediately drop your support of the Palestinian people due to the acts of a militant group (likely orchestrated by Iran) is just dumb.

          • ubermeisters@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            18
            arrow-down
            16
            ·
            1 year ago

            It is what it is. The world needs some semblance of order and you can’t just go fucking killing this many civilians because somebody took your land. It doesn’t work and you can get fucked if this is how you think. Nobody’s saying Israel is the good guy here. Fact is, everyone here sucks, there’s no good guy just a bunch of innocent fucking civilians who don’t deserve any of this on either side.

            • Jaderick@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              18
              arrow-down
              7
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              It is what it is. The world needs some semblance of order and you can’t just go fucking killing this many civilians because somebody took your land.

              So by this logic, Native Americans should’ve just accepted Manifest Destiny?

              The rest of your statement is fine, the first part is stupid.

              Edit: this isn’t support for Hamas’ actions, this is the consequence of Israel’s very real policies and actions that lead to stupid people with a lot of anger targeting civilians

        • Zaktor@sopuli.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          35
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          1 year ago

          I just think people talking about killing civilians at a music festival being an atrocity (it is!) were probably really quiet about the regular civilian casualties caused by Israel year after year. In 12 years, the UN counted 5,590 deaths. That’s not 5,590 dead terrorists, but people are acting like the atrocities just started now. I’m very much willing to say “what about”, not because it should make people think this one isn’t horrible, but because they really should answer “what about the other ones you ignored”.

          And one doesn’t even need to go backward. Israel’s already racking up civilian casualties, and you can bet there’s going to be some people who want to keep going until the Palestinian number is much higher than the Israeli number.

          • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            14
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            1 year ago

            Plenty of people, within Israel and outside, care quite a lot about those deaths and also consider them tragedies. You’ll remember that Netanyahu isn’t exactly an uncontroversial figure within Israel.

            That’s why this has been such an incredibly frustrating and disappointing series of events, because any possibility of peace has been thoroughly extinguished now, and Palestinian citizens are going to suffer even more. Hamas of course knew this going into it, and didn’t care because its aim has never been peace for Palestinians, but rather the extermination of all Jews within Israel (as explicitly stated in its founding charter).

            • Zaktor@sopuli.xyz
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              18
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              1 year ago

              Both Netanyahu and Hamas are probably riding a nice high right now. Both of their political positions improve the more people die on both sides.

              • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                7
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                There may be a real rally around the flag effect, but there’s a lot of anger at Netanyahu on the massive military and intelligence failures that made this possible. He may be able to stick around for this conflict, but he’s probably toast afterwards.

                Likud’s entire thing has always been that they’re the ones that can be trusted to keep Israelis safe. That view is now completely shattered.

                • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Perhaps there’s a glimmer of hope then. If a less conservative and radical party takes control, maybe we’ll see an independent Palestinian state that’s allied with Israel and jointly fights Hamas.

                  Unfortunately that’s very unrealistic :/. We’ll probably see an even more radical conservative group take power, and make us think Netanyahu was a saint in comparison. :/

                  • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    3
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    That assumes that there is a sizable portion of Palestinians that want to fight Hamas, and there’s sadly no guarantee of that.

          • flossdaily@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            13
            arrow-down
            27
            ·
            1 year ago

            Israel has never targeted civilians. Palestinians have always targeted civilians.

            Hamas uses civilians as meat shields.

            When people like you take INTENT out of the equation, your just doing Hamas’s bidding.

            • TheDankHold@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              18
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              They literally shot a journalist in the head and then sent military thugs to rough up people at the funeral. Your perspective is severely lacking context on one side.

              • flossdaily@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                17
                ·
                1 year ago

                According to who?

                You have to take these stories with a grain of salt.

                Do you remember the Jenin massacre?

                Do you remember all the awful things that the Israelis did? It was horrific.

                … Except …

                It never happened. The Palestinians lied about it.

                • TheDankHold@kbin.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  19
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  You know you can look this up so you don’t come across as an ignorant partisan right?

                  Her name was Shireen Abu Akleh

                  From the article:

                  “Several independent investigations carried out by various bodies and organisations, including the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, concluded that Abu Akleh was most likely killed by seemingly well-targeted shots fired by Israeli forces, despite her wearing clear identification as a journalist. Internal investigations carried out by the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) found “a high possibility” that Abu Akleh was “accidentally hit” by IDF gunfire. However, to date, Israeli authorities have not opened a criminal investigation into her death or held anyone accountable.”

                  So are you willing to amend your previous claim? Or do you just want to cast doubt on anything that shows the Israeli government in a bad light?

                  Edit: I almost forgot, here’s proof that Israeli military went to the funeral to beat pallbearers and others: https://apnews.com/article/shireen-abu-akleh-journalist-funeral-west-bank-bb71e2ec64dd034066bc6df4a9aa2fb3

                  And you know what, have some more quotes from the original article:

                  “The experts also decried the record-high number of killings of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem in recent months in the context of raids by Israeli forces, often targeting refugee camps. In 2022, out of 9000 Israeli operations, 702 targeted refugee camps in the occupied West Bank. In 2023, already more than 100 Palestinians have been killed in the context of such operations, including in Jenin, Nablus and Jericho. Since 2001, at least 18 Palestinian journalists have been reportedly killed by the IDF in the occupied Palestinian territory and no one has been held accountable for those deaths.”

                  • flossdaily@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    4
                    arrow-down
                    22
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Again, the sources are suspect. The UN has been widely, absurdly anti-Israel to an absolutely comical extent.

            • Zaktor@sopuli.xyz
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              20
              arrow-down
              5
              ·
              1 year ago

              Then it sure is strange how they keep doing things that kill civilians. They’re not blowing up buildings because that particular building was especially good for launching rockets. It’s collective punishment optimistically aimed at some sort of regime change, but more likely just to feed domestic bloodlust. It’s certainly not degrading military capabilities. They’re gone well before the missile hits.

              And this is just the direct deadly violence. They knock down houses and light their fields on fire. Those are civilian targets in service of ethnic cleansing, either performed directly by the state or by agents supported and defended by it.

              • Shardikprime@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                9
                arrow-down
                6
                ·
                1 year ago

                Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:

                “Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.

                To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.

                The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.

                Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?

                This isn’t good-faith criticism.

                These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why

            • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              11
              arrow-down
              5
              ·
              1 year ago

              A take I read earlier today is that Hamas tries to kill as many Jews as possible, Israel tries to kill as few Palestinian citizens as possible, and neither side is very successful.

              Sounds about right really.

              • flossdaily@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                11
                ·
                1 year ago

                I don’t think that’s a great assessment. Israel is much better at avoiding civilian casualties than even the United States.

                If they are the best in the world at minimizing civilian casualties during military operations, your definition of “very successful” might need some reexamination.

                  • Shardikprime@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    5
                    arrow-down
                    7
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    This is a chart that shows one thing only: Israel has the stronger military.

                    It doesn’t say a thing about who attempted to kill more civilians, and who took steps to avoid civilian deaths. It doesn’t say anything about who has made concessions for peace, and who has walked away from peace deals for almost a century.

                    If you think this chart shows that Israel is the bad guy, you would absolutely shit yourself if you saw a similar chart comparing the US and Nazi Germany.

        • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          13
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Does the graph you just dismissed not make it clear they are absolutely not “equally appalling?”

          Seems to me by the numbers they are far more appalling.

          Edited to add: It does not justify the most recent attack, but it seems bizarre to pretend this is “both sides bad” when it’s “both sides bad, but one side objectively does a lot more bad”

          • drekly@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            18
            arrow-down
            7
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            It’s because the media is super biased in the UK and US, I assume. The reporting on the BBC has been all about how bad Palestine have been acting but nothing about what Israel is doing to them.

            OF COURSE attacking a music festival is bad. But in context, I’m not fucking surprised they’re lashing out, and with more context, I think most people would feel pretty extremist if they were being killed and pushed out of their homes constantly for almost 100 years.

            But hey the UK/US has to pretend nothing ireal does is wrong because they created this mess.

          • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            15
            arrow-down
            8
            ·
            1 year ago

            but one side objectively does a lot more bad

            This is only true because Israel is good at stopping attacks, not because Hamas isn’t trying.

            Graph intentional attacks targeted at civilians and you’ll get a very different picture. Personally, if someone tried to murder my family but failed, I wouldn’t find them blameless just because they didn’t succeed.

            • flossdaily@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              13
              arrow-down
              8
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Also missing from the picture is that for decades Hamas has been using Palestinian civilians as human shields, building bombs and rockets in the houses where children live, shooting rockets from inside schools and hospitals.

              Hamas gave Israel the choice of letting it’s own children die, and not shooting back, or shooting back and Knowing that no matter how hard they tried (and they try pretty fucking hard) that they wouldn’t be able to avoid civilian deaths.

              And ALL of this was because Hamas was banking on people in the west doing exactly what this gullible sap is doing: assuming that Israel is the monster.

              • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                1 year ago

                And ALL of this was because Hamas was banking on people in the west doing exactly what this gullible sap is doing: assuming that Israel is the monster.

                Hmm well maybe, but is there a part of this (taken from another comment) that you reject as untrue?

                The 1967 borders are the most recent broadly recognized boundaries. After the Six Days War, Israel gained control of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, and Gaza.

                As of today, East Jerusalem is a diverse but uneasy mix of Jews and Palestinians. Israel maintains that a unified Jerusalem is its capital, and this is the de facto situation. According to general peace plans, an eventual Palestinian state is meant to have East Jerusalem as its capital, so this is an obvious conflict point.

                The West Bank is divided into three areas: A - administered by the Palestinian Authority, B - jointly administered by the PA and Israel, and C - administered by Israel. Israel has been increasingly building more and more settlements within Area C, which are widely recognized as illegal and being incredibly counter-productive towards peace. The Israelis who move there are often extremely nationalistic and often commit violence against the Palestinians.

                • flossdaily@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  8
                  arrow-down
                  4
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  I don’t disagree with any of that.

                  The important context is that the war in which Israel captured all that territory was a war where all of Israel’s neighbors were the aggressors.

                  And Israel quickly traded back land for peace, as was the case with Egypt.

                  And the neighboring Arab states DELIBERATELY created the Palestinian refugee crisis by refusing to take in all their former countrymen, believing that the humanitarian crisis was good politics for them, and would be a nightmare for Israel. (Correct on both counts).

                  I also agree that the settlements are a dick move, and purely antagonistic.

                  I also think Israel is using them as a bargaining chip.

                  I think in the Oslo Accords, Israel offered literally everything it could, and when that wasn’t enough, they leaned hard into creating settlements, a new bargaining chip, which someday they could add to future negotiations.

                  I also think that over time the Palestinians’ bargaining position has weakened.

                  Now that Israel has a security fence, the iron dome, and one of the most powerful militaries in the world, the daily threat of terrorism has been reduced to an unfortunate but livable state of existence. (This week excluded obviously)

                  Frankly at this point Israelis can wait out the Palestinians indefinitely, and I’m betting that when this current state of War is over, Israel is going to be in the business of securing themselves even more tightly.

                  I doubt if they’ll be inclined to ever offer Palestinians a peace deal as generous is the one they offered during the Oslo Accords.

                  • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    So if we agree that the settlements are (today) antagonistic and generally viewed as illegal, and if our goal is to remove the motivation for people to kill each other - maybe we should couch this in terms of whether the settlements belong there instead of in terms of who has a stronger “bargaining position” like we’re haggling over a horse or something.

                    Because it certainly looks to me like the stronger party provoking the weaker party so they have a reason they can point to for smashing them under their heel.

                    Like when a cop provokes someone’s fight or flight response so they can justify using more force and/or a “resisting arrest” charge.

              • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                11
                arrow-down
                6
                ·
                1 year ago

                Israel had occupied Gaza like it does the West Bank until 2005 when it withdrew, in hopes that it would lead to peace.

                It was very shortly followed by a barrage of rocket attacks and the current blockade was enacted.

                So, that has been tried. It wasn’t very effective.

                • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  9
                  arrow-down
                  4
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Honest question because maybe what I think is the answer is not actually the answer.

                  How much land does Israel currently occupy that is outside the bounds of what was originally agreed as belonging to them?

                  • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    6
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    The 1967 borders are the most recent broadly recognized boundaries. After the Six Days War, Israel gained control of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, and Gaza.

                    As of today, East Jerusalem is a diverse but uneasy mix of Jews and Palestinians. Israel maintains that a unified Jerusalem is its capital, and this is the de facto situation. According to general peace plans, an eventual Palestinian state is meant to have East Jerusalem as its capital, so this is an obvious conflict point.

                    The West Bank is divided into three areas: A - administered by the Palestinian Authority, B - jointly administered by the PA and Israel, and C - administered by Israel. Israel has been increasingly building more and more settlements within Area C, which are widely recognized as illegal and being incredibly counter-productive towards peace. The Israelis who move there are often extremely nationalistic and often commit violence against the Palestinians. The IDF routinely conducts operations throughout all areas in order to ostensibly maintain security, though they’ll always prioritize Israeli lives over Palestinians.

                    The naive and now utterly hopeless idealistic peace plan is the creation of a Palestinian state consisting of the West Bank and Gaza with a capital in East Jerusalem, with the city being managed by a bi-national coalition of both governments. Israeli settlements within the West Bank would be either abandoned or annexed into Israel with an equal amount of land being swapped from Israel to Palestine. Some kind of stable passage would be created to connect Gaza and the West Bank.

                    One issue is that a not-small portion of Israelis believe themselves to be entitled to the entire land by virtue of religion, and see continued settlement of the West Bank as furthering this goal. These people suck and aren’t that much better than Hamas, though they’re not quite as barbaric. The much harder issue is that no Israeli will never allow this solution to happen unless Israel’s security is guaranteed, and there is simply zero trust in that, especially now. Israel will not allow itself to sit next to a state run by terrorists that are hell-bent on killing every Jew in the country.

                    On the matter of international law, Israel justifies its actions by accurately stating that no internationally recognized state lays claim to the West Bank - Jordan withdrew all claims in 1967 - and as such they have a right to settle it. Essentially no other countries have recognized that claim, and there has always been a general agreement that the West Bank will form the basis of a future Palestinian state. Israel certainly hasn’t acted in a way that furthers this, but as I said before, its red line is that it will not tolerate security threats to its existence. Militant Palestinian groups attacking Israel only makes peace more and more impossible.

                    So long as many Palestinians see the mere existence every Jew in Israel as a crime and a target, Israel will see every Palestinian as a potential threat, and the fact of the matter is that Israel holds the guns.

          • flossdaily@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            13
            arrow-down
            8
            ·
            1 year ago

            The chart shows military might. It doesn’t show intent. It doesn’t show who tried to avoid bloodshed. It doesn’t show who ignited conflict after conflict.

            A similar chart showing civilian deaths in WWII would show the US killed way more Nazi civilians than vice versa. Would you be arguing that the US was the bad guy in that war?

              • flossdaily@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                6
                arrow-down
                8
                ·
                1 year ago

                Interesting you say that. In the Israel Palestine conflict, Israel was set up with the blessing of the international community and the sovereign powers that controlled the land at the time.

                It was the surrounding Arab Nations that tried to invade and destroy Israel.

                It was Israel’s COUNTER attack that created the occupied territories.

                But the Palestinian refugee crisis would not have happened but for the aggression of Israel’s neighbors.

                • drekly@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  9
                  arrow-down
                  5
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Set up with the blessing 😂

                  They got plonked into Palestine and told they could have it, by countries who weren’t anywhere near

                  • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    4
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    That’s a stretch

                    Extremists of both religions were fighting to take the territory, the jewish ones coming out on top and a lot of innocents caught in between

      • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        17
        arrow-down
        8
        ·
        1 year ago

        Let’s see a chart of the number of attempted murders of civilians from each side. That’ll paint a pretty different picture.

        Tell me, because we both know that the Israeli casualty number is only low because Israel is good at protecting its citizens and not because Hamas isn’t trying to kill as many Israelis as it can, do you really think the situation would be better if Hamas was more successful at killing Israelis?

        • drekly@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          6
          arrow-down
          7
          ·
          1 year ago

          Of course not, I think they’re both fucking ridiculous fighting over a place named in their own personal fairytale.

          One side being stronger doesn’t make the things they do right.

          • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            15
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            And to the exact same point, one side being less successful at killing citizens doesn’t make them right either.

            • drekly@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              5
              arrow-down
              10
              ·
              1 year ago

              Just because our military is in your country, stealing land, and keep killing you REALLY WELL, doesn’t mean you can retaliate to stop us.

              You should tell Ukraine.

              I don’t think your justification of “they’re just really good at killing Palestinians” really helps

              • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                9
                arrow-down
                5
                ·
                1 year ago

                If Hamas didn’t conduct military operations out of civilian buildings specifically so that the retaliation will kill civilians, that number would be a lot lower.

                Ultimately, you either think that rape and murder of civilians for absolutely no reason is something that can be justified, or you don’t.

      • nautilus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        25
        arrow-down
        23
        ·
        1 year ago

        Keep those downvotes coming, Zionists. No matter how much you sweaty virtue signalers try to ‘own’ people on the internet, it doesn’t change the fact that Israel caged an animal, tortured it, and are now trying to put it down because it bit back.

        You and I both know that equating the entire population of Palestine to an Iraq/Qatar-funded extremist group is entirely wrong, but whatever justifies the wholesale slaughter of thousands over the years I guess. Stop pretending to care about Israeli citizens so you can feel good about watching Palestinians die.